Please explain these innovations in the Novus Ordo Mass
#1
As some of you know, I came back to the Catholic Church in March 2017 after 40 years away. I have been attending the TLM in various countries (I travel a lot), but now I find myself, for several weeks, in a country (Japan) without a TLM. To avail myself of the sacraments of Confession and Communion, I broke down and have been forced to attend the N.O. mass here. 

I noticed some weird things in the churches here. 

(1) Where are padded kneelers? I was forced to kneel on the hard floor today after Communion. OUCH! No one was kneeling. Is it like this in other countries? Why are the kneelers gone? Space saving? The church is big. Aren't we supposed to kneel and pray after Communion?

(2) When I entered the church, one of the lay persons in charge asked me to pick up a host (with a pair of tongs) from a plate and place it in the chalice so that the priest could consecrate it later in the mass. I have NEVER in my life picked up a host from a cup and placed it in a chalice. Is this normal? I thought the hosts were kept in the back and taken out for consecration. I have never encountered this practice in any TLM I have attended. Does this happen in other places where the N.O. mass is celebrated?

(3) Offertory: girls in short skirts and tight leggings bring the baskets to be passed around. Normal? The attire seems indecent.

(4) Altar girls: is this normal? I mean, where are the boys?

(5) Communion in the hand: I saw this once in another church here and I am distressed to find it in the church that I am currently attending (which has as reverent of a Novus Ordo service you're going to get in this country). So I kneel and take Communion on the tongue (no idea what the people behind me think and I don't care). The 80-year old French-Canadian priest (who is also my confessor here) gladly obliges. HE doesn't think it's weird. But no one else gets on his or her knees for Communion; they take it in their hands and pop it in their mouth. I mean, don't people believe in the Real Presence? When did this start? Why? Do they still teach the Real Presence and trans-substantiation or did Vatican II remove it?

I don't want to tell my mother, to whom I gave a Rosary a few weeks ago and who I am trying to bring back to the Church. 

She told me that, back in the day, priests wouldn't even give Communion to women whose upper arms were not covered and who were not wearing veils. I do not want to scandalise my poor Mom and tell her about the above-mentioned practices.
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#2
I have before posted copiously on this issue and usually have citations for when why and how these things got implemented.

In short, just know these were all introduced to undermine the Faith , piety and reverence of lay Catholics.

It is not an accident , although most of the clergy today are probably unaware of how nefarious allowing such things really is.
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#3
(05-20-2018, 03:13 AM)Julia Augusta Wrote: (1) Where are padded kneelers? I was forced to kneel on the hard floor today after Communion. OUCH! No one was kneeling. Is it like this in other countries? Why are the kneelers gone? Space saving? The church is big. Aren't we supposed to kneel and pray after Communion?

Go into any ancient church and you won't find kneelers, and that's not because they didn't kneel, but didn't mind doing penance.

Pews, even, are something introduced mainly by Protestants, not Catholics, since the Catholics would stand and kneel for the Liturgy, but having a Protestant preacher talk for a few hours at you without any liturgical ritual, it's basically a theater with religious trappings.

When the Catholic oratory started to increase during the 16th-17th century, benches then pews became more common.

The Novus Ordo focus is of course meant to de-emphasize the penitential practice of kneeling, and indirectly to undermine devotion to the Blessed Sacrament, as you suggest. That does not mean that the practice of having pews and kneelers is very ancient, however. It fact, it is often this sophistry that the modern "liturgists" use to remove kneelers and pews in favor of "what the early Church did" while refusing to actually go back to the ritual and doctrine of the early Church.

I'd not advocate padded kneelers. Nice hard wood to do some penance for Holy Mother the Church!

(05-20-2018, 03:13 AM)Julia Augusta Wrote: (2) When I entered the church, one of the lay persons in charge asked me to pick up a host (with a pair of tongs) from a plate and place it in the chalice so that the priest could consecrate it later in the mass. I have NEVER in my life picked up a host from a cup and placed it in a chalice. Is this normal? I thought the hosts were kept in the back and taken out for consecration. I have never encountered this practice in any TLM I have attended. Does this happen in other places where the N.O. mass is celebrated?

This is one practice which is done in places where the Blessed Sacrament cannot be reserved.

There are two options : either the priest or sacristan can estimate the number of communions or the faithful can identify themselves and intending to receive communion. The latter can be done by various methods, this being one of them.

If there are extra hosts, then if they cannot be reserved in a tabernacle, the priest consumes them before purifying everything.

It is not objectionable or untraditional, unless the Blessed Sacrament is habitually reserved, in which case there is no reason for there to be an exact headcount.
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#4
(05-20-2018, 03:13 AM)Julia Augusta Wrote: (3) Offertory: girls in short skirts and tight leggings bring the baskets to be passed around. Normal? The attire seems indecent.


Quote:Not normal, and scandalous. I've never seen it, so I'm not sure how common it is.


(4) Altar girls: is this normal? I mean, where are the boys?


Quote:Quite normal. I believe the Diocese of Lincoln is the only one in the US which prohibits it. Some pastors have gotten rid of it, but it's very, very common. The worst of it is, as soon as you introduce 'Female altar boys' as I like to call them, the boys quit serving because girls have cooties! ::LOL: Therefore, you end up with only girls serving. 


(5) Communion in the hand: I saw this once in another church here and I am distressed to find it in the church that I am currently attending (which has as reverent of a Novus Ordo service you're going to get in this country). So I kneel and take Communion on the tongue (no idea what the people behind me think and I don't care). The 80-year old French-Canadian priest (who is also my confessor here) gladly obliges. HE doesn't think it's weird. But no one else gets on his or her knees for Communion; they take it in their hands and pop it in their mouth. I mean, don't people believe in the Real Presence? When did this start? Why? Do they still teach the Real Presence and trans-substantiation or did Vatican II remove it?


Quote:Originally forbidden, it was granted an indult after many Bishops just ignored the law and introduced it. Very, very common, tho' it opens the way to massive abuse and sacrilege. In the Diocese of Lincoln, it is allowed, but Communion on the tongue is taught and encouraged. I recently watched a First Communion rehearsal and Father taught the children to receive on the tongue.

Standing is just another 'reform' introduced after the Council. It's everywhere. Even here, as conservative and Tradition minded as our Bishop is (encouraging COTT, ad orientem, etc.) I'm the only one in my Parish that kneels. However, at least here I don't get static or a 'correction' after Mass. It was a bit awkward today, tho'. We had a visiting Priest who was quite tall, and for some reason he stood on the step of the sanctuary instead of on the lower floor. He had to stoop to give me Holy Communion.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

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#5
(05-20-2018, 05:16 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: [quote pid='1374426' dateline='1526800395']
Quite normal. I believe the Diocese of Lincoln is the only one in the US which prohibits it. Some pastors have gotten rid of it, but it's very, very common. The worst of it is, as soon as you introduce 'Female altar boys' as I like to call them, the boys quit serving because girls have cooties! ::LOL: Therefore, you end up with only girls serving.

[/quote]

Are female altar boys like Ascension Thursday Sunday?
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#6
(05-20-2018, 05:19 PM)Paul Wrote: Are female altar boys like Ascension Thursday Sunday?

Yep! Quite similar. :LOL:
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
  “Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)” 
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My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'


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#7
2) When I entered the church, one of the lay persons in charge asked me to pick up a host (with a pair of tongs) from a plate and place it in the chalice so that the priest could consecrate it later in the mass. I have NEVER in my life picked up a host from a cup and placed it in a chalice. Is this normal? I thought the hosts were kept in the back and taken out for consecration. I have never encountered this practice in any TLM I have attended. Does this happen in other places where the N.O. mass is celebrated?

the reason for them asking you to place the host in the ciborium is because there is a rule that encourages the priest to give communion to the faithful from the hosts which were consecrated at the mass itself. In order for the the priest to have enough hosts and not too few or too many in many places the faithful are invited to place a host in the ciborium before mass if they intend to receive Holy Communion. While placing the host in the ciborium before mass is not universally practiced, this rule predates Vatican II.
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#8
(05-21-2018, 12:17 AM)Poche Wrote: 2) When I entered the church, one of the lay persons in charge asked me to pick up a host (with a pair of tongs) from a plate and place it in the chalice so that the priest could consecrate it later in the mass. I have NEVER in my life picked up a host from a cup and placed it in a chalice. Is this normal? I thought the hosts were kept in the back and taken out for consecration. I have never encountered this practice in any TLM I have attended. Does this happen in other places where the N.O. mass is celebrated?

the reason for them asking you to place the host in the ciborium is because there is a rule that encourages the priest to give communion to the faithful from the hosts which were consecrated at the mass itself. In order for the the priest to have enough hosts and not too few or too many in many places the faithful are invited to place a host in the ciborium before mass if they intend to receive Holy Communion. While placing the host in the ciborium before mass is not universally practiced, this rule predates Vatican II.

Interesting, since the host is not consecrated should be an issue. I have never seen this practiced in any church. Could you provide a reference to this practice?
Thanks!
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#9
(05-20-2018, 03:13 AM)Julia Augusta Wrote: (5) Communion in the hand: I saw this once in another church here and I am distressed to find it in the church that I am currently attending (which has as reverent of a Novus Ordo service you're going to get in this country). So I kneel and take Communion on the tongue (no idea what the people behind me think and I don't care). The 80-year old French-Canadian priest (who is also my confessor here) gladly obliges. HE doesn't think it's weird. But no one else gets on his or her knees for Communion; they take it in their hands and pop it in their mouth. I mean, don't people believe in the Real Presence? When did this start? Why? Do they still teach the Real Presence and trans-substantiation or did Vatican II remove it?

I received my first communion 36 years ago last month (my grandparents gave me a crucifix for my first communion and the date thereof is contained on the back).  Never once do I recall being told that the Eucharist should be taken on the tongue (rather than in the hand) and absolutely nothing about having to kneel for the Eucharist.  In fact, for the next three decades I thought it was strange when I saw communicants taking the Eucharist on the tongue!  What little I was taught!  This was just a mere decade after the reforms of Vatican II; how quickly centuries of tradition can be cast to the dustbin and forgotten.  

As for teaching the Real Presence, I believe this was taught me, but more in a nonchalant way (and to distinguish ourselves from the Lutherans).  I will say that I recall much more respect being paid to the Eucharist when I was younger than what I see today.  When I now visit the parish of my childhood, and now knowing at least some catechism, I am absolutely shocked on how such little respect is paid to the mass and/or the Eucharist.  I truly see my childhood parish as not being very much different than the Lutheran church down the road.
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#10
(05-21-2018, 12:17 AM)Poche Wrote: 2) When I entered the church, one of the lay persons in charge asked me to pick up a host (with a pair of tongs) from a plate and place it in the chalice so that the priest could consecrate it later in the mass. I have NEVER in my life picked up a host from a cup and placed it in a chalice. Is this normal? I thought the hosts were kept in the back and taken out for consecration. I have never encountered this practice in any TLM I have attended. Does this happen in other places where the N.O. mass is celebrated?

the reason for them asking you to place the host in the ciborium is because there is a rule that encourages the priest to give communion to the faithful from the hosts which were consecrated at the mass itself. In order for the the priest to have enough hosts and not too few or too many in many places the faithful are invited to place a host in the ciborium before mass if they intend to receive Holy Communion. While placing the host in the ciborium before mass is not universally practiced, this rule predates Vatican II.

From Mediator Dei;

118. But the desire of Mother Church does not stop here. For since by feasting upon the bread of angels we can by a "sacramental" communion, as we have already said, also become partakers of the sacrifice, she repeats the invitation to all her children individually, "Take and eat. . . Do this in memory of Me"[105] so that "we may continually experience within us the fruit of our redemption"[106] in a more efficacious manner. For this reason the Council of Trent, reechoing, as it were, the invitation of Christ and His immaculate Spouse, has earnestly exhorted "the faithful when they attend Mass to communicate not only by a spiritual communion but also by a sacramental one, so that they may obtain more abundant fruit from this most holy sacrifice."[107] Moreover, our predecessor of immortal memory, Benedict XIV, wishing to emphasize and throw fuller light upon the truth that the faithful by receiving the Holy Eucharist become partakers of the divine sacrifice itself, praises the devotion of those who, when attending Mass, not only elicit a desire to receive holy communion but also want to be nourished by hosts consecrated during the Mass, even though, as he himself states, they really and truly take part in the sacrifice should they receive a host which has been duly consecrated at a previous Mass. He writes as follows: "And although in addition to those to whom the celebrant gives a portion of the Victim he himself has offered in the Mass, they also participate in the same sacrifice to whom a priest distributes the Blessed Sacrament that has been reserved; however, the Church has not for this reason ever forbidden, nor does she now forbid, a celebrant to satisfy the piety and just request of those who, when present at Mass, want to become partakers of the same sacrifice, because they likewise offer it after their own manner, nay more, she approves of it and desires that it should not be omitted and would reprehend those priests through whose fault and negligence this participation would be denied to the faithful."[108]
 
and then;
121. Now it is very fitting, as the liturgy otherwise lays down, that the people receive holy communion after the priest has partaken of the divine repast upon the altar; and, as we have written above, they should be commended who, when present at Mass, receive hosts consecrated at the same Mass, so that it is actually verified, "that as many of us, as, at this altar, shall partake of and receive the most holy body and blood of thy Son, may be filled with every heavenly blessing and grace."[112]


http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en...r-dei.html
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