God Made You Like This
#11
Fair enough, MagisterMusicae.

You're totally right: the media has an agenda.

This story might be "fake news" for all we know.

But why no official corrections? Will they come? Ever? After multitudes of stories like this, not from "fringe" sources but "mainstream" sources, of Pope Francis seemingly affirming objective untruths and nonsense, there comes a time when those at the top need to respond and correct. Indeed, their silence, it seems to me, is actually evidence of them wanting to muddy the waters.

Yes, the media has an agenda, though perhaps Pope Francis and his followers have an agenda that (partly?) overlaps.

And that's what's most damning of all.

Then again, on the other hand, ConceptJunkie's point is worth adding: often we can interpret a statement of Pope Francis in such a way to show that it's not technically wrong. That's often fair enough. However, this still runs into a parallel difficulty: the media interprets it their (bad) way. And it's gotten so awful that there's no excuse not to have a strong corrective response from the pope and his media relations people.

Anyway, maybe the correction to this story will come.

All we can do is wait and see. . .
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#12
(05-21-2018, 04:21 PM)Bonaventure Wrote: I think a few here are missing the larger picture here.

The person Bergoglio was saying this to was one of the victims in the Chilean abuse scandal.  The victim had been sodomized numerous times by a priest/bishop when he was young.  When Bergoglio tells the (now presumably sexually active homosexual) man that "God made you like this" (which is a direct quote), he completely disregards the possibility that the man is what he is because of the evil acts perpetrated upon him by a vile and evil man (or men).  Those acts of evil were not at all done at God's will or bequest, and for Bergoglio to tell the man unequivocally that God "made you like this" is a double slap in the face.

Can't argue with you there.  I was giving the Holy Father the benefit of the doubt as much as possible and still concluding that his statement is once again going to cause (directly or indirectly) a lot of confusion and dissent.
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#13
(05-21-2018, 12:55 PM)OldRightGeorge Wrote: Though it goes without saying around these corners of the Internet, Bergoglio cannot be this ignorant of Catholic moral theology or natural law philosophy.

He appears to take a perverse delight in muddying the waters.

I wonder, did God make a person diseased?
I wonder, did God make defective genes to make somebody prone to alcoholism?
I wonder, did God make a person blind?
I wonder, did God make a person like bestiality?
I wonder, did God make a person to like evil?
I wonder, . . .?

He's certainly heard of the metaphysical distinction between being and privation thereof. Yes, God made individuals who just happen to also be homosexual. We all know that being homosexual is not sinful per se, though it is disordered per se.

To be sure, God allows evil to happen, but only insomuch as it can be used to serve a higher good. But it doesn't follow from that, nevertheless, that God positively wills individual evils or thinks it is "okay" that somebody is gay.

It's one thing to (correctly) claim that a homosexual can aim at the virtuous life; however, when has the current pope ever make such nuanced distinctions? (Please correct me if I'm mistaken.)

No one is perfect. Everyone has defects. Some people carry very heavy crosses. Some crosses are visible and some crosses are invisible. Sometimes God allows us to be challenged for His own greater glory. Remember the man born blind and the disciples asked Jesus whose sin it was that caused the man to be born blind. Jesus said that it was so that the glory of god could be made manifest. God calls all of us to give Him glory, but each in his own way. Jesus has a special love for this person who is gay. Jesus loves all of us. It is up to us to live the holiness was that God calls us to live and not to judge the other people. Remember the same lawgiver who said, "thou shall not fornicate." also said, "Thou shall not judge."
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#14
(05-21-2018, 01:44 PM)Eric F Wrote: More significantly, the embrace of a harmful self-identity as ‘gay’ or ‘lesbian’ in the core of their beings is not being rejected by St. Peter’s successor.  Instead, if Cruz’s report holds up, we have a Pope who now simply asserts: “God made you gay.”

The Pontiff’s words are unsupported by the magisterium of the Church.https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/god-made-you-gay-did-pope-francis-just-tell-the-lie-of-the-century

I don't know about the causes of being gay or not. I do know that everyone has a cross. Some crosses are very visible (aka someone who is in a wheelchair because they are paralyzed) And others have crosses that are not so visible. That person could be holier in the eyes of God than we like to think we are because of the effort that he makes in trying to please God than we do.
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#15
At this point, you honestly can't blame homosexuals who believe that the church fully accepts their lifestyle. This is what happens when we hold the head of the church to lower standards than everyone else.
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#16
(05-21-2018, 12:14 PM)Poche Wrote: God also made the children with downs syndrome. It is ok to have downs syndrome. God loves you very much. 
:) :) :)

HUH?

are u comparing homosexual acts w/ Down's Syndrome?  (I ask bc i honestly don't get what u are saying here)

obviously one is a moral choice

one is something you really are born with (and is not a sin)
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#17
God did not make children with Down's Syndrome, as though He actively intended them to have this disease. He did, of course, create their souls, but their bodies were born that way because of original sin.

If homosexuals are 'born that way', it's because of original sin, not because God approves of it.
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#18
The constant barrage of things coming from the press due to the, seemingly, careless comments made by Pope Francis and the lack of clarification from the Vatican are very very disturbing.

While I am neither a Pope Francis apologist nor a Crux Now apologist, the article below has a more balanced approach to the issue. One comment on the article below is that even though Pope Francis addresses the situation a little better thatn the MSM is reporteing is the lack of mention of repentance. I agree Jesus would not send people away because of SSA or adultery or murder or ... but Jesus would say repent of [insert sin here]. The message of repentance appears to be lost by Pope Francis.


https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2018/05/21/a...nt-matter/

ROME - As part of the fallout of Pope Francis’s meeting with 34 Chilean bishops, many of whom have been accused or at least suspected of covering up cases of clerical sexual abuse and destroying damning evidence, and all of whom have offered their resignation, the survivors who met with Francis in April continue to share bits and pieces of their encounter with the pontiff.

“Juan Carlos, that you are gay doesn’t matter,” Francis reportedly told clerical sexual abuse survivor Juan Carlos Cruz. “God made you like this and loves you like this and it doesn’t matter to me. The pope loves you like this, you have to be happy with who you are.”
Cruz is one of three victims of Father Fernando Karadima who were in Rome in late April for a weekend meeting with Francis. His comments came in an interview with Spanish daily El Pais.


Cruz was answering a question about his homosexuality, and was asked if he’d spoken with the pope about it and the suffering he was subjected to as a result of it. He answered affirmatively.

“They had basically told him that I was a pervert,” the survivor said. “I explained that I am not the reincarnation of St. Aloysius Gonzaga, but I’m not a bad person, I try not to hurt anyone.”


Gonzaga was an Italian aristocrat who became a member of the Society of Jesus, the same religious community as Francis.
Sharing an English report of the interview on Twitter, Cruz spoke about this exchange, calling it “something else that I will always remember about my hours of conversations with Pope Francis.”

“His phrase: ‘Who am I to judge?’ I experienced it personally and I hope many feel that no one is excluded or should be excluded…ever!” he said on the same tweet.


Francis and the man abused by Chile’s most notorious pedophile priest also spoke about Cruz’s faith.

“They had told him that I didn’t believe, that I was an enemy of the Church,” Cruz said in the interview with El Pais. “I told him that it enraged me, because I continue to believe, loving the Church, thinking that this can change.”

He said that he’d told the pope that his faith is very important to him, and that he found it “awful” that they tried to destroy that for him. “It’s a terrible evil,” he said the pope told him in response.


Cruz reportedly also told the pope that he could “have a spectacular papacy if you grab the bull by the horns and deliver a strong blow on the issue of abuse, and send out the message that the pope will no longer tolerate this.”


“He told me, ‘help me so that the Holy Spirit guides me so that I know well what I have to do,’” Cruz said.

In a written message to Chilean bishops in Rome last week, Francis wrote that in the case of many abusers “grave problems” had already been found during their formation, and there are also “grave accusations against some bishops or superiors who [allegedly] entrusted to these education institutions priests suspected of active homosexuality.”

Francis typically takes a pastoral tone when addressing a gay person, and has often distinguished between the person and the morality of same-sex acts, in line with Church teaching maintaining that homosexual acts are sinful but homosexual orientation is not.
For instance, Francis’s words to Cruz echo those he reportedly said to Spanish transgender man Diego Neria, who was welcomed by the pontiff privately in the Vatican in 2015: “God loves all his children, however they are; you are a son of God, who accepts you exactly as you are. Of course you are a son of the Church!”


His pastoral tone, however, doesn’t undermine his staunch opposition to promoting or endorsing such “tendencies,” as he told reporters flying with him after his visit to Georgia and Azerbaijan in 2016.

During that flight, he spoke about receiving Neria in the Vatican- without actually giving names, saying that “Life is life, things have to be accepted as they come. Sin is sin,” the pope said. “Tendencies, hormonal imbalance, have and cause so many problems… we must be attentive. Not to say that it’s all the same, but in each case, welcome, accompany, study, discern and integrate. This is what Jesus would do today.”

“When a person (who is gay) arrives before Jesus, Jesus certainly will not say, ‘Go away because you are homosexual,'” Francis said, adding: “Please don’t say that the pope will sanctify trans [transgender people], because I read the headlines in the newspapers.”

Yet he tempered his welcoming tone by reiterating his opposition to gender theory, which presents the idea that even though people are biologically men or women, they can identify as male, female, both or neither. During that trip, he went so far as to say that the teaching of this theory in schools amounted to a “global war” against the family.

“What I was talking about was the nastiness that is present today in indoctrinating people in gender theory,” he said. “It is one thing for a person to have this tendency, this option, and even change sex.”


“But it is another thing to teach it, gender theory, in schools along these lines in order to change mentality. I call this ideological colonization,” he said.
"There are in truth three states of the converted: the beginning,  the middle and the perfection. In the beginning, they experience the charms of sweetness; in the middle, the contests of temptation; and in the end, the fullness of perfection."
-- Pope St. Gregory

“One day, through the Rosary and the Scapular, Our Lady will save the world.”
-- attributed to Saint Domenic
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#19
Let's face it... these latest statements are more in line with Lady Gaga than they are with the CCC.

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#20
I think this was done on purposes. I was never a conspiracy theorist but I have become one. This is another attempt at getting the camels nose in the tent. Look how the secular media has blown this up, especially the LGBT websites. It doesn't matter if the Pope said it or not, the tooth paste is now out of the tube. This along with the upcoming youth synod is an attempt to normalize homosexuality, act of sodomy and other deviant sexual acts. I don't believe the Pope will make any statement. He is happy that there is confusion. 
Just my take on things.
Bob

If my dog doesn't like you maybe I shouldn't either!!

“No one in the world can change Truth!”
St. Maximilian Kolbe, PRAY FOR US!
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