Does the Church teach these people go to Hell?
#1
I have heard that the Church teaches unbaptized people all go to Hell. I know they don't go directly to Heaven, but I have a problem with them going to Hell, even if it isn't one of the lower levels thereof (where bad Catholics go)

also, what about a person who lives on some island or what have you and has never heard of Jesus?

I have heard Limbo is no longer taught in the RCC

so do we just not pursue knowledge of this kind of thing? I mean, really, only God knows some things and we have to sometimes be content not to know or understand
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#2
(05-23-2018, 04:11 PM)gracemary5 Wrote: I have heard that the Church teaches unbaptized people all go to Hell. I know they don't go directly to Heaven, but I have a problem with them going to Hell, even if it isn't one of the lower levels thereof (where bad Catholics go)

also, what about a person who lives on some island or what have you and has never heard of Jesus?

I have heard Limbo is no longer taught in the RCC

so do we just not pursue knowledge of this kind of thing? I mean, really, only God knows some things and we have to sometimes be content not to know or understand

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congre...ts_en.html
"There are in truth three states of the converted: the beginning,  the middle and the perfection. In the beginning, they experience the charms of sweetness; in the middle, the contests of temptation; and in the end, the fullness of perfection."
-- Pope St. Gregory

Cor Jesu Eucharistic Miserere Nobis 

Salus animarum suprema lex
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#3
(05-23-2018, 04:28 PM)CaptCrunch73 Wrote:
(05-23-2018, 04:11 PM)gracemary5 Wrote: I have heard that the Church teaches unbaptized people all go to Hell. I know they don't go directly to Heaven, but I have a problem with them going to Hell, even if it isn't one of the lower levels thereof (where bad Catholics go)

also, what about a person who lives on some island or what have you and has never heard of Jesus?

I have heard Limbo is no longer taught in the RCC

so do we just not pursue knowledge of this kind of thing? I mean, really, only God knows some things and we have to sometimes be content not to know or understand

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congre...ts_en.html

I don't have time to read that and can't for some reason copy/paste it to a flashdrive!



Have you read it? Could you summarize a little (and I will later try to read and/or copy it) thanks
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#4
(05-23-2018, 04:31 PM)gracemary5 Wrote:
(05-23-2018, 04:28 PM)CaptCrunch73 Wrote:
(05-23-2018, 04:11 PM)gracemary5 Wrote: I have heard that the Church teaches unbaptized people all go to Hell. I know they don't go directly to Heaven, but I have a problem with them going to Hell, even if it isn't one of the lower levels thereof (where bad Catholics go)

also, what about a person who lives on some island or what have you and has never heard of Jesus?

I have heard Limbo is no longer taught in the RCC

so do we just not pursue knowledge of this kind of thing? I mean, really, only God knows some things and we have to sometimes be content not to know or understand

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congre...ts_en.html

I don't have time to read that and can't for some reason copy/paste it to a flashdrive!



Have you read it? Could you summarize a little (and I will later try to read and/or copy it) thanks

"The conclusion of this study is that there are theological and liturgical reasons to hope that infants who die without baptism may be saved and brought into eternal happiness, even if there is not an explicit teaching on this question found in Revelation. However, none of the considerations proposed in this text to motivate a new approach to the question may be used to negate the necessity of baptism, nor to delay the conferral of the sacrament."
"There are in truth three states of the converted: the beginning,  the middle and the perfection. In the beginning, they experience the charms of sweetness; in the middle, the contests of temptation; and in the end, the fullness of perfection."
-- Pope St. Gregory

Cor Jesu Eucharistic Miserere Nobis 

Salus animarum suprema lex
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#5
And the study on birth control said it was acceptable.

The Council of Florence addressed this. "We define also that… the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go straightaway to Hell, but to undergo punishments of different kinds." Since we're saved by grace, and only those in God's grace are saved, those who still have original sin cannot enter heaven. Or perhaps it's better to think of original sin in the Eastern way, where rather than something you have, it's something you lack - sanctifying grace, which is only restored through baptism.

Is it possible that God grants sanctifying grace to the unborn or to children outside of Baptism? Maybe. But if He does, He hasn't revealed it. While it isn't heresy to believe in this, since Limbo isn't defined doctrine, it goes against everything the Church has ever said about the necessity of baptism and the reality of original sin, except for the past 50 years or so. And we know what's happened since then - if you go by what most of the clergy say, nobody goes to Hell.

None of us are innocent, and, maybe it's not fair, but Adam screwed it up for all of us by rejecting God's gift of sanctifying grace. We're all born without it, and for that reason alone aren't worthy to spend eternity with God. None of us deserve heaven, so there's nothing unjust about going to a place of pure natural happiness without the Beatific Vision.

Besides, if it's true that unbaptised children go to heaven, why not abort as many as possible, to ensure their salvation, instead of letting them be born and risk damnation later in life?
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#6
(05-23-2018, 04:11 PM)gracemary5 Wrote: I have heard that the Church teaches unbaptized people all go to Hell. I know they don't go directly to Heaven, but I have a problem with them going to Hell, even if it isn't one of the lower levels thereof (where bad Catholics go)

also, what about a person who lives on some island or what have you and has never heard of Jesus?

I have heard Limbo is no longer taught in the RCC

so do we just not pursue knowledge of this kind of thing? I mean, really, only God knows some things and we have to sometimes be content not to know or understand

Man is not owed heaven.

Sanctifying Grace + Death is the only means to get to heaven (a place of supernatural happiness). Without Sanctifying Grace a soul will go to Hell. Full Stop.

There is no injustice in this, because men are not owed heaven.

For those who do not receive Sanctifying Grace, but have never had use of their reason, so never been able to willfull seek God, and thus die without having committed actual personal sin, God will give them a place of natural happiness as their final abode. This "limbo infantium" is part of Hell, because not part of heaven, but also not part of the Hell where there is pain.

Not having Sanctifying Grace they are unable to access heaven.

However, once someone has the power to make a rational and voluntary act, God gives them all the graces necessary to have Sanctifying Grace, such that if they fail to attain it before death, it is their own fault, and thus their suffering in Hell is also their own fault. That suffering is proportional to the amount of grace given and rejected, thus the 7-year-old pagan boy who dies soon after coming to the use of reason without ever rejecting the Catholic Church (since he knows nothing of it), deciding to kill another boy to take his toys, will be punished less severely than the Catholic who after a good upbringing and family, leaves his wife and children to gamble, commit adultery, and live as a pagan, before dying of a drug overdose.

Either way both will have freely cast off God's grace and love.

God gives all of us the Natural Law and Natural religion which every soul has no excuse not to follow. If we fail to follow these, we are culpable, since these are written in the heart of men.

If a man fails to worship God at least with the Natural religious sense which is inborn, then again, he will be culpable.

To those who have never been given the benefit of the Faith but who do follow the Natural Law, God will either arrange for a private revelation to them or a missionary so they can desire to do whatever God wants (which includes Baptism), or will be able to receive the Faith.

If a man is given such an opportunity, just like those of us who have the chance to convert or have been given an upbringing in the Faith, rejecting such gifts, and personally guilty for this, they, like us will suffer in Hell.
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#7
(05-23-2018, 06:13 PM)Paul Wrote: Besides, if it's true that unbaptised children go to heaven, why not abort as many as possible, to ensure their salvation, instead of letting them be born and risk damnation later in life?

For the same reason we don't drown them in the baptismal font to ensure they go to heaven, rather than letting them live their life and almost certainly lose heaven on their own.
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#8
(05-24-2018, 09:15 AM)Melkite Wrote: For the same reason we don't drown them in the baptismal font to ensure they go to heaven, rather than letting them live their life and almost certainly lose heaven on their own.

Of course we can never do evil even if good come from it, but this lack of belief in original sin weakens the argument against abortion, at least towards those who aren't particularly religious. But maybe they wouldn't care about original sin anyway.
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#9
(05-24-2018, 11:17 AM)Paul Wrote: Of course we can never do evil even if good come from it, but this lack of belief in original sin weakens the argument against abortion, at least towards those who aren't particularly religious. But maybe they wouldn't care about original sin anyway.

They wouldn't care.  The original sin argument against abortion sings only to the choir.  

I think the argument against abortion is perfectly strong without needing to bring religion into it at all.  In fact, if abortion rights will ever be repealed, it will have to be on the secular front with a strong secular argument.
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#10
There is the baptism of desire.
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