Inquiry regarding Tridentine Mass
#1
Hello all,

I might have to move to another city in the near future where the only Tridentine Masses are done at SSPX churches. I know the SSPX-Church relation is a grey zone and many people in the Church have different opinions on what one should and should not attend, especially in the past few years and the 'reconciliation' under Benedict XVI. So what are my options exactly? I know excommunications have been lifted in the past and the recognition of sacraments and pastoral activities of SSPX clergy has been closer to full communion with the Holy See than ever. My intention was to go to SSPX mass on Sunday - and then attend the Novus Ordo at a normal parish to take communion. Maybe also attend another Tridentine mass during the week if I can... Does that sound reasonable? Anyone else in a similar situation? Thanks for taking the time to read.
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#2
Go to the SSPX and receive Communion! They are not in schism, their Masses are valid. Why would you subject yourself to the Nervous Disorder when you have a perfectly good TLM available?

And, full disclosure, I have never attended an SSPX Mass in my life. Not from scruples, but just that I've either not had one available, or there was another TLM more conveniently located.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
  “Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'


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#3
(05-23-2018, 04:44 PM)vpanno Wrote: Hello all,

I might have to move to another city in the near future where the only Tridentine Masses are done at SSPX churches. I know the SSPX-Church relation is a grey zone and many people in the Church have different opinions on what one should and should not attend, especially in the past few years and the 'reconciliation' under Benedict XVI. So what are my options exactly? I know excommunications have been lifted in the past and the recognition of sacraments and pastoral activities of SSPX clergy has been closer to full communion with the Holy See than ever. My intention was to go to SSPX mass on Sunday - and then attend the Novus Ordo at a normal parish to take communion. Maybe also attend another Tridentine mass during the week if I can... Does that sound reasonable? Anyone else in a similar situation? Thanks for taking the time to read.
The SSPX are in full communion with Rome. They are not in any sort of schism or heresy. Don't be afraid to receive communion from them.

There is much misunderstanding and misrepresentation regarding the SSPX but there is nothing wrong with attending their masses. At this point most of the issues are more political than anything else.
Surréxit Dóminus vere, Alleluia!
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#4
@jovan66102
@[b]Dominicus
[/b]



Thanks for the replies. I know that in Ecclesia Dei (1988), the consecration of bishops by Lefebvre was called a 'schismatic act' and  'adherence to the schism' a 'grave offense to God' (sounds terrifying if anything). Of course a lot has changed since then, but even in Remissionem Scomunica (2009), Benedict XVI writes that SSPX 'does not possess a canonical status in the Church' and their priests 'do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church'. It is also clearly written that they are not in full communion with the Church yet. As I've mentioned in my previous post, I believe the sacrament of confession was recently made valid along with marriages. However, I couldn't find anything on the sacrament of holy communion itself... I still welcome the positive attitude you seem to have towards SSPX. Hopefully they can return to full communion without having to cede too much to Rome and lose themselves. For now I think I will just attend without committing and receive communion elsewhere if it comes to that. Also, do any of you have something to back up your claims? Maybe something happened since '09 I'm not aware of. God Bless.
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#5
Well for one, if they actually are schematic then the Pope wouldn't have the "jurisdiction" to give them the faculties to hear confessions.

Think of the orthodox, they are 100% schismatic but they have valid sacraments rregardless of what the Pope says. The fact that the Pope gave the SSPX permission is proof that they are Catholic.
Surréxit Dóminus vere, Alleluia!
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#6
I'm curious. If you are convinced they are schismatic, how can you justify attendance at their Masses? How is it different from going to an Orthodox Liturgy every week, but going to an NO Mass to receive?
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
  “Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'


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#7
@Dominicus

Yes I have no doubt they are Catholics and their masses and sacraments are indeed valid. But like you said the Orthodox have valid sacraments, too. Yet Orthodox sacraments are illicit... and this is what I am trying to understand. Whether SSPX sacraments are illicit or not, even if the society is not schismatic per se.

@jovan66102

I never said I was convinced that they are schismatics... I even said it seemed to be a grey zone. To the contrary, I am trying to understand more on them to possibly receive in addition to attendance. Their mass is a traditional Catholic rite and is therefore not only valid but purely Catholic - that I know and is enough justification to just attend. But if sacraments other than confession remain illicit as they were until Benedict XVI, then I would rather not receive. You implied you would be perfectly comfortable receiving communion at an SSPX mass - I just wanted to know what you base this on so I can feel the same. From what I have read and what I have written in my previous posts, it seems that so far only confessions are valid and legitimate according to the Holy See, doesn't it?
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#8
(05-24-2018, 05:58 PM)vpanno Wrote: @Dominicus

Yes I have no doubt they are Catholics and their masses and sacraments are indeed valid. But like you said the Orthodox have valid sacraments, too. Yet Orthodox sacraments are illicit... and this is what I am trying to understand. Whether SSPX sacraments are illicit or not, even if the society is not schismatic per se.

@jovan66102

I never said I was convinced that they are schismatics... I even said it seemed to be a grey zone. To the contrary, I am trying to understand more on them to possibly receive in addition to attendance. Their mass is a traditional Catholic rite and is therefore not only valid but purely Catholic - that I know and is enough justification to just attend. But if sacraments other than confession remain illicit as they were until Benedict XVI, then I would rather not receive. You implied you would be perfectly comfortable receiving communion at an SSPX mass - I just wanted to know what you base this on so I can feel the same. From what I have read and what I have written in my previous posts, it seems that so far only confessions are valid and legitimate according to the Holy See, doesn't it?

It would probably be good to ask, since you say you've done your research, what is required for Communion to be "licit"?

I'm not talking about a Mass, since as you say, you see no problem attending a Mass by an SSPX priest.

The question is what make your reception of communion from an SSPX Mass "licit" or "illicit"?

What about if you were in need of Viaticum? Would you allow an SSPX priest to bring you communion? Why or why not?

The whole "liceity"/"validity" question is very legalistic, so it's good to understand the legal aspects if we're balking on a question of "liceity".
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#9
Where are you planning on moving to?
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#10
(05-24-2018, 08:42 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(05-24-2018, 05:58 PM)vpanno Wrote: @Dominicus

Yes I have no doubt they are Catholics and their masses and sacraments are indeed valid. But like you said the Orthodox have valid sacraments, too. Yet Orthodox sacraments are illicit... and this is what I am trying to understand. Whether SSPX sacraments are illicit or not, even if the society is not schismatic per se.

@jovan66102

I never said I was convinced that they are schismatics... I even said it seemed to be a grey zone. To the contrary, I am trying to understand more on them to possibly receive in addition to attendance. Their mass is a traditional Catholic rite and is therefore not only valid but purely Catholic - that I know and is enough justification to just attend. But if sacraments other than confession remain illicit as they were until Benedict XVI, then I would rather not receive. You implied you would be perfectly comfortable receiving communion at an SSPX mass - I just wanted to know what you base this on so I can feel the same. From what I have read and what I have written in my previous posts, it seems that so far only confessions are valid and legitimate according to the Holy See, doesn't it?

It would probably be good to ask, since you say you've done your research, what is required for Communion to be "licit"?

I'm not talking about a Mass, since as you say, you see no problem attending a Mass by an SSPX priest.

The question is what make your reception of communion from an SSPX Mass "licit" or "illicit"?

What about if you were in need of Viaticum? Would you allow an SSPX priest to bring you communion? Why or why not?

The whole "liceity"/"validity" question is very legalistic, so it's good to understand the legal aspects if we're balking on a question of "liceity".

I haven't read the code of canon law but I always assumed illicit sacraments referred to sacraments administered in a valid manner by people outside the Church - something I would be fine receiving if it was the only option available and if the sacrament was performed in accordance with Catholic standards (referring to your Viaticum comment here). Now even though SSPX are not officially schismatic (which would make their sacraments valid but illicit), they are still not in full communion with the Church... So where does that put their sacraments? Half-licit, half-not? Are there degrees of liceity? I wish the Vatican would spent some time on that matter and make it clearer instead of promoting satanic galas. So far I wasn't able to get a definitive answer and some people have even said one should preferably avoid sacraments there. To answer your first question: for a sacrament to be 100% licit, my guess is the sacrament would have to be administered by someone in full communion with the Church. And as I've said, unless there are levels or degrees of liceity, I'm not sure where SSPX stands.
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