Inquiry regarding Tridentine Mass
#31
(05-27-2018, 06:29 PM)vpanno Wrote: Pope John Paul II does call it a schism, though.

3. In itself, this act was one of disobedience to the Roman Pontiff in a very grave matter and of supreme importance for the unity of the church, such as is the ordination of bishops whereby the apostolic succession is sacramentally perpetuated. Hence such disobedience - which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy - constitutes a schismatic act.

4. The root of this schismatic act can be discerned in an incomplete and contradictory notion of Tradition.

I do agree, however, that formal adherence can mean absolutely anything and the lack of definition in Ecclesia Dei renders the entire threat void from a judicial standpoint. But as a Catholic always wishing to remain in Communion with Rome, I would have probably just avoided SSPX altogether under such threats made by the Pontiff himself.

The Pope never says there is a schism. He speaks of a schismatic act. The act is essential an act of disobedience. He judges that it implies rejection of the Papacy, but factually this can be shown to be absolutely false. Even a cursory look at the sermon Archbishop Lefebvre gave at the ceremony specifically rejects the notion that he wishes to separate himself from the Pope or rejects the Papal authority.

Quote:Lastly, you have at your disposal at the bookstall some books and flyers which contain all the elements necessary to help you better understand why this ceremony, which is apparently done against the will of Rome, is in no way a schism. We are not schismatics! If an excommunication was pronounced against the bishops of China, who separated themselves from Rome and put themselves under the Chinese government, one very easily understands why Pope Pius XII excommunicated them. There is no question of us separating ourselves from Rome, nor of putting ourselves under a foreign government, nor of establishing a sort of parallel church as the Bishops of Palmar de Troya have done in Spain. They have even elected a pope, formed a college of cardinals.... It is out of the question for us to do such things. Far from us be this miserable thought to separate ourselves from Rome!

On the contrary, it is in order to manifest our attachment to Rome that we are performing this ceremony. It is in order to manifest our attachment to the Eternal Rome, to the Pope, and to all those who have preceded these last Popes who, unfortunately since the Second Vatican Council, have thought it their duty to adhere to grievous errors which are demolishing the Church and the Catholic Priesthood.

So the factual accuracy of Pope John Paul II's statement is questionable, precisely because, I am sure, he was not given all the details, or perhaps even false reports, like Paul VI (who was told by Cardinal Villot that Archbishop Lefebvre forced his seminarians to take an oath against the Pope).

Even if you accept that the act was "schismatic", it was done by six men only, not the SSPX.

The question then remains whether the SSPX is formally adhering to this "schism", but absent any competent judgement from the authority, we have nothing.

You can continue to quote Ecclesia Dei Adflicta as much as you want, but you are drawing conclusion from it that the Holy See has not drawn. Repeating the quotes does not solve the question of whether the Holy See has acted like or declared that the SSPX as a whole is in schism, and you will find no documentation to that effect, because it has never been issued.

(05-27-2018, 06:29 PM)vpanno Wrote: Regarding Vatican II teachings, I believe the Society would first have to officially recognize the Novus Ordo mass (if I'm not mistaken they completely reject its validity right now).

Not in Vatican II, and you are incorrect about their position. The SSPX upholds the validity of the Novus Ordo Missæ if said with the correct matter and intention and according to the official formula. They say it is a danger to the Faith because of its intentional efforts to teach a Protestant concept and diminish the Catholic Faith, but they admit it's validity.

(05-27-2018, 06:29 PM)vpanno Wrote: Also they would have to accept little dogmatic (some will say heretic) 'updates' regarding the worship of the One True God and our faith in general (cf. Lumen gentium as an example, in which I think there are statements alleging Muslims worship the same God as us).

That's not taught dogmatically, and it could not be. Muslims worship a false God, because they refuse to worship the Trinity.

(05-27-2018, 06:29 PM)vpanno Wrote: Finally, they would have to accept all the ecumenical work that has been done since 1962 (not teachings per se, but still a major evolution in the bad direction).

One accepts doctrine, not actions.

(05-27-2018, 06:29 PM)vpanno Wrote: I do believe it accepting these would be a small price to pay in exchange for a strong fraternity such as SSPX returning to 'full Communion' status. We need traditionalists and even extremists I would dare say these days, and we need them within Church walls. Not somewhere in between.

Again, "a small price to pay" sounds like what you tell a man who worried about having an severe operation to save his life. "I know you'll be on dialysis for the rest of your life and never be the same again, but it's a small price to pay to cure your cancer."

One does not speak of a "price to pay" if it is not the tolerance of an evil. Are you suggesting that these things the SSPX would have to stomach in your scenario are evil?
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#32
(05-27-2018, 08:27 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: That's not taught dogmatically, and it could not be. Muslims worship a false God, because they refuse to worship the Trinity.

Do the Jews also worship a false god, or do they worship the true God incorrectly?
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#33
(05-27-2018, 11:37 PM)Paul Wrote:
(05-27-2018, 08:27 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: That's not taught dogmatically, and it could not be. Muslims worship a false God, because they refuse to worship the Trinity.

Do the Jews also worship a false god, or do they worship the true God incorrectly?

John 5:23 "That all men may honour the Son, as they honour the Father.  He who honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father who hath sent him."

John 15:23 "He that hateth me hateth my Father also."

I John 2:22-23 "Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ?  This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.  He that confesseth the Son hath the Father also."
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#34
(05-28-2018, 12:13 AM)VoxClamantis Wrote: John 5:23 "That all men may honour the Son, as they honour the Father.  He who honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father who hath sent him."

John 15:23 "He that hateth me hateth my Father also."

I John 2:22-23 "Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ?  This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.  He that confesseth the Son hath the Father also."

None of those say the Jews don't worship the same god as Christians. Their worship isn't accepted by God, but "honoureth not the Father" isn't the same thing as meaning to worship some other god. They don't have the Father since they deny the Son, but their worship is still directed at the Father. Our Lord is talking about what's acceptable to God and the necessity of true worship requiring recognition of Him as God. The Jews don't "have the Father" in the sense that they're saved by their worship, but they don't direct their worship to some other entity.

Some people are absolutely convinced that Trump is the world's biggest racist/sexist/homophobe/etc. and worse than Hitler, just waiting to kill anyone who isn't a white Christian male. Do they have a different President than the rest of us?
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#35
(05-28-2018, 12:53 AM)Paul Wrote: Some people are absolutely convinced that Trump is the world's biggest racist/sexist/homophobe/etc. and worse than Hitler, just waiting to kill anyone who isn't a white Christian male. Do they have a different President than the rest of us?
Apparently, since he's #nottheirpresident. ;)

[Image: j20-protest-sign.jpg]
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#36
(05-28-2018, 12:57 AM)In His Love Wrote:
(05-28-2018, 12:53 AM)Paul Wrote: Some people are absolutely convinced that Trump is the world's biggest racist/sexist/homophobe/etc. and worse than Hitler, just waiting to kill anyone who isn't a white Christian male. Do they have a different President than the rest of us?
Apparently, since he's #nottheirpresident. ;)

I should have phrased that better. When they say such things, are they talking about the same person that Trump supporters say isn't any of those things, or are they talking about a different man?

I don't see how saying one hates the Father by hating the Son means that those who do so don't intend to worship the Father, only that they're not doing so properly and their worship will profit them nothing.

I suppose Protestants worship a different god, too, making them pagans rather than heretics?
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#37
(05-28-2018, 01:05 AM)Paul Wrote:
(05-28-2018, 12:57 AM)In His Love Wrote:
(05-28-2018, 12:53 AM)Paul Wrote: Some people are absolutely convinced that Trump is the world's biggest racist/sexist/homophobe/etc. and worse than Hitler, just waiting to kill anyone who isn't a white Christian male. Do they have a different President than the rest of us?
Apparently, since he's #nottheirpresident. ;)

I should have phrased that better. When they say such things, are they talking about the same person that Trump supporters say isn't any of those things, or are they talking about a different man?

I don't see how saying one hates the Father by hating the Son means that those who do so don't intend to worship the Father, only that they're not doing so properly and their worship will profit them nothing.

I suppose Protestants worship a different god, too, making them pagans rather than heretics?

It is one thing to worship a God if one has a false idea of Him. It is a different thing to deny the Trinity. If one denies the Trinity, then one denies God, because God is Trinity.

Most Protestants have a warped notion of God, but still accept the Trinity at least on paper.

Mormons, for instance, reject the Trinity, and are not even considered Christians (e.g. their "Baptisms" are certainly invalid). They worship a different God.

Jews may worship a different God. Those that reject that Jesus Christ is the Messiah but accept the Pharisaic religion are certainly not rejecting that there is a Second Person, but rejecting the one who claimed to be that Second Person. However, those who would reject even a Trinity of Persons, would reject God.

Muslims do not worship the Trinity. As such they do not worship God.

It should be remembered that in all of these cases the worship is not supernatural or meritorious, except in the case of a Protestant who perhaps by some miracle of grace is in the State of Grace.
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#38
(05-28-2018, 03:26 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: It is one thing to worship a God if one has a false idea of Him. It is a different thing to deny the Trinity. If one denies the Trinity, then one denies God, because God is Trinity.

Most Protestants have a warped notion of God, but still accept the Trinity at least on paper.

How is it different to deny the Trinity than, for example, to deny that Jesus is God, like the Arians did? The Arians meant the same being when they talked about Jesus, even though they denied He's God. Same with any atheist today who believe that a man named Jesus lived 2000 years ago, but who deny that He's God. They aren't talking about a different Jesus.

Saying that denying the Trinity means referring to a different god means that the Jews before Christ worshipped a different god, since they didn't know He was a Trinity. If the Jews in AD 25 worshipped the Father, did the Jews in AD 35 suddenly start directing their worship to a different god? The sacrifices in the temple were meant for the Father all the way up until the temple's destruction. Denying the Trinity means you're mistaken about God, but not necessarily that you intend to worship something else.

What makes the Trinity the unique attribute of God such that if you deny it, you aren't talking about the same thing anymore? Why are all the heretics, who deny some aspect of the Son or of God, still considered Christian and not pagan? If a Satanist says that God is evil, when we know that His goodness is an essential aspect of Him, is the Satanist talking about something else than God? No, he means the Christian God.

(05-28-2018, 03:26 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: It should be remembered that in all of these cases the worship is not supernatural or meritorious, except in the case of a Protestant who perhaps by some miracle of grace is in the State of Grace.

Never said it was, which is why the Church's statement that Jews and Muslims worship the same God really doesn't mean much.
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#39
(05-28-2018, 12:53 AM)Paul Wrote:
(05-28-2018, 12:13 AM)VoxClamantis Wrote: John 5:23 "That all men may honour the Son, as they honour the Father.  He who honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father who hath sent him."

John 15:23 "He that hateth me hateth my Father also."

I John 2:22-23 "Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ?  This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.  He that confesseth the Son hath the Father also."

None of those say the Jews don't worship the same god as Christians. Their worship isn't accepted by God, but "honoureth not the Father" isn't the same thing as meaning to worship some other god. They don't have the Father since they deny the Son, but their worship is still directed at the Father. Our Lord is talking about what's acceptable to God and the necessity of true worship requiring recognition of Him as God. The Jews don't "have the Father" in the sense that they're saved by their worship, but they don't direct their worship to some other entity.

Some people are absolutely convinced that Trump is the world's biggest racist/sexist/homophobe/etc. and worse than Hitler, just waiting to kill anyone who isn't a white Christian male. Do they have a different President than the rest of us?
No one reaches the Father unless they go through Christ (Jn 14:6). Thus, when Jews and Muslims 'pray', their prayers do not reach the Father. Meaning they do not worship God. I guess one could say they try to but fail due to their erroneous perception of our Lord Jesus - as both groups ignore He is the messiah and the Son of God.
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#40
@jovan66102 @MagisterMusicae

It seems the topic has deviated... Anyway, thank you for taking the time to share valuable information regarding SSPX and their status.
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