Heretical Hymn?
#11
(06-17-2018, 09:07 PM)Paul Wrote:
(06-17-2018, 08:58 PM)Dominicus Wrote: I believe that is the idea this hymn is trying (and failing) to express, of course it was probably made ambiguous on purpose like so much else.

I think so, too, except it fails, which means it shouldn't be used at Mass. David Haas is no Thomas Aquinas. I'm sure St Bonaventure came up with something better than this, too.

I agree.
Surréxit Dóminus vere, Alleluia!
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#12
(06-17-2018, 07:44 PM)For Petes Sake Wrote: At mass today I noticed the communion hymn seems to contradict what communion is.
Without seeing you we love you.
Without touching you we embrace.
Without knowing you we follow.
Without seeing you we believe.

Thoughts?

Blessed are those who believe without seeing. - Jesus
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#13
(06-18-2018, 12:11 AM)Poche Wrote: Blessed are those who believe without seeing. - Jesus

Except at Communion, we do see Him right in front of us. This hymn can be interpreted as denying the Real Presence, and for that reason is unsuitable at Mass.
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#14
(06-18-2018, 12:31 AM)Paul Wrote:
(06-18-2018, 12:11 AM)Poche Wrote: Blessed are those who believe without seeing. - Jesus

Except at Communion, we do see Him right in front of us. This hymn can be interpreted as denying the Real Presence, and for that reason is unsuitable at Mass.

You see him under the accident of bread and wine. From the Pange Lingua;

The Word as Flesh makes true bread into flesh by a word and the wine becomes the Blood of Christ.And if sense is deficient to strengthen a sincere heart Faith alone suffices.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pange_Ling..._Mysterium
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#15
(06-18-2018, 04:52 AM)Poche Wrote: You see him under the accident of bread and wine. From the Pange Lingua;

It appears to be bread and wine, but it's not. So it's heretical to say we don't see Jesus at Communion. Thomas Aquinas says (most of) our senses deceive us, appearing to show us bread and wine. David Haas says we don't see Him at all. It could be interpreted to mean, and I think this was the intent, to mean we don't see Him appearing as a man, but it's ambiguous, and this sort of ambiguity has no place at Mass.
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#16
(06-18-2018, 09:23 AM)Paul Wrote:
(06-18-2018, 04:52 AM)Poche Wrote: You see him under the accident of bread and wine. From the Pange Lingua;

It appears to be bread and wine, but it's not. So it's heretical to say we don't see Jesus at Communion. Thomas Aquinas says (most of) our senses deceive us, appearing to show us bread and wine. David Haas says we don't see Him at all. It could be interpreted to mean, and I think this was the intent, to mean we don't see Him appearing as a man, but it's ambiguous, and this sort of ambiguity has no place at Mass.

Our senses can only provide us information about what is accidental. The substance of a thing is only something which the mind can abstract from the senses.

It is precisely this that is why animals cannot really know a thing, because they just see, smell, taste, feel, or hear a sensory input and then react by instinct or learned behavior. Men can know the thing itself.

Thus, it is not incorrect to say that what we do not see, taste or touch Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, but it is dangerous, and favoring of heresy. We see, taste and touch only the accidents, but the substance of the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ is what is being received. That substance is without any accidents except quantity (which is the accident which makes a thing extend into a material place), and even then it is a miraculous way that quantity exists, extending Christ into space, but not ordering the parts of him. Thus we receive the whole Christ in every particle, not just part of him. Yet the accidents of bread and wine do not inhere in Christ's substance. They do not inhere in anything, which is, itself, miraculous.

So the statement that we do not sense in the Eucharist, Christ could be understood correctly, but clearly is an effort to diminish the realness of the Christ's presence, and an attempt to emphasize the spiritual presence of Christ. That is very close to heresy, or at least favoring of it, but I don't think it can be called heretical in itself.

We receive the human Body and Blood of Christ, along with his human Soul, yet even here, when we look at a host we cannot see that body. We see bread, but we confess Christ. Thus it is an act of Faith. If we saw Christ directly, then the Eucharist and Real Presence would not demand an act of Faith.

As St. Thomas Aquinas wrote in the Lauda Sion :

Quote:Christ's followers know by faith that bread is changed into His flesh and wine into His blood. Man cannot understand this, cannot perceive it; but a lively faith affirms that the change, which is outside the natural course of things, takes place. Under the different species, which are now signs only and not their own reality, there lie hid wonderful realities. His body is our food, His blood our drink. And yet Christ remains entire under each species. The communicant receives the complete Christ uncut, unbroken and undivided. Whether one receive or a thousand, the one receives as much as the thousand. Nor is Christ diminished by being received.
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#17
I think context is everything.  From a quick google, this hymn was based on the verse 1 Peter 1:8 

"Without having seen* him you love him; though you do not now see him you believe in him and rejoice with unutterable and exalted joy."

*(The footnote in the RSV-CE for this says some ancient authorities have "known" instead here)

In general, it's a shallow ditty, but otherwise fine from what I can tell.  I can see how using it in the context of communion could give someone the wrong idea.  Imagine having Matt. 24:23 as the communion verse or the basis for a communion hymn.

"Then if any one says to you, ‘Lo, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it."
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#18
(06-18-2018, 12:31 AM)Paul Wrote:
(06-18-2018, 12:11 AM)Poche Wrote: Blessed are those who believe without seeing. - Jesus

Except at Communion, we do see Him right in front of us. This hymn can be interpreted as denying the Real Presence, and for that reason is unsuitable at Mass.
Pax!  Many saints and average people have heard the Lord speak to them, have seen and felt  His presence, and to assume (in this particular hymn) that we all don't, is not true.  When it is mentioned in scripture you have believed without seeing, there is also a passage I belive that says many have seen and believed; it was Thomas who believed only by putting his finger into the wound of Christ.  I think this hymn is ambiguous and may even prevent one from searching and believing further into the mystery.  it's not the last word in believing, seeing, knowing, and experiencing, feeling Christ's presence.   God bless, angeltime :heart:
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#19
(06-18-2018, 09:58 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: So the statement that we do not sense in the Eucharist, Christ could be understood correctly, but clearly is an effort to diminish the realness of the Christ's presence, and an attempt to emphasize the spiritual presence of Christ. That is very close to heresy, or at least favoring of it, but I don't think it can be called heretical in itself.

It's particularly bad when this hymn is used for Communion. Reminds me of a certain recent Council, which could be understood in an orthodox manner, but that's not how it appears on its face. "Without seeing You"? Erm, You're right there, about to be received by the faithful. Maybe you're right about it being close to heresy, but 'close to heresy' = not suitable for Mass.

I'd also prefer 'Thee' to 'You', but at least it's consistent, unlike the English translation of the sequence for Pentecost:

O most blessed Light divine,
Shine within these hearts of yours,
And our inmost being fill.

And, more related to the topic, Lauda Sion:

You who all things can and know,
Who on earth such food bestow,
Grant us with your saints, though lowest,
Where the heav’nly feast you show,
Fellow heirs and guests to be. Amen. Alleluia.
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#20
Get involved in your parish's music ministry and take control of what gets sung.
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A Dieu mon ame,
Mon arme au roi,
Mon Coeur a la dame,
Mon honneur a moi!
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