Cannabis Act Legal in Ontario
#31
Oh, this is too irresistible. You are tempting me too much haha. Debating is kind of addictive, isn't it? I swear, after this I'm finished.

So, a lot of things to address here.

First of all, you argue that it would be better to legalize so that we would stop wasting money on an ineffective system. You are right that it is ineffective. But why is it ineffective? Because there are way too many powerful people with stakes in this industry. They will lose a lot of money if the prohibition is done well. Many people have been bribed, bought off etc. Is there a solution to this? I don't really know. That's like asking people to stop sinning. Maybe someone smarter than me can come up with something.

It bothers me that your arguments center on monetary gain. Would I choose to live in a poor place or an insane place with every other neighbor having mental health issues and increased crime? I would be poor probably. It's just like the people who argue about how shutting down planned parenthood would badly affect the economy or we should pass out condoms to South Africa because they are poor and shouldn't have babies (and abstinence has shown much greater results for AIDS and such, btw). Monetary matters should never trump morality and it bothers me when people hang on that reason. Which is for the greater good? More teachers or more healthy citizens around the world? Health seems greater to me.

Number two,

Your college student who gets arrested has commited a crime. Maybe he didn't think it was a real deal crime or whatever but it was. It was stupid and he was young but crimes have consequences. Compared to what could have happened to him (permanent mental dysfunction), he was let off easy. Why did God let this happen to this guy compared to all the others who used it but didn't get caught? I don't know but we must believe that divine providence has a plan for him and that God wishes for his happiness. Maybe he'll convert, who knows? We cannot rip up all of our laws for these unfortunate cirvumstances. His life is not ruined forever and he will find a way to get a job again. It will be harder than others to get a job but he will get one. Life isn't fair and we as Catholics should know that. We don't live in a utopia and to try to make one is foolish. That's how communism started.

Fourth

Marijuana is much, much stronger than alcohol so I am inclined to think that it is a mortal sin most of the time. Now, even if I am wrong and sometimes it is not so strong, you are still consciously choosing to harm your god-given body with it. But, really now, it is not the same thing as having a beer. And, I have a lot of negative associations with alcohol but I'm still going to be fair about this. Prostitution is a very big mortal sin and it is worse than marijuana in a lot of ways but that's not the point. This is about marijuana's effect on society at large. I feel like you're leading me on a cat-chase here.

Former Buddhist has very generously (thank you) conceded that in his personal life he has experienced 'bad trips' that were disturbing for him. I would wish that had been spared of that and conclude that it has, in fact, had an effect on his brain. Of course, I wish him all the best of health and a speedy recovery if he chooses to forgo it someday.

If you want evidence on violent crimes then look up Peter Hitchens and see what he has discovered about the link. Or read anything he has wrote about it. He's a very gutsy smart guy. Of course, it wouldn't be generally known.because of the big powerful people making sure that nobody is allowed to ask those sorts of questions. Overdose isn't the issue, it's about long term and short term effects. I'm not surprised that you think it's harmless because this is a widely spread belief for obvious purposes.
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#32
(06-20-2018, 06:58 PM)Cecilia9 Wrote: Oh, this is too irresistible. You are tempting me too much haha. Debating is kind of addictive, isn't it? I swear, after this I'm finished.

So, a lot of things to address here.

First of all, you argue that it would be better to legalize so that we would stop wasting money on an ineffective system. You are right that it is ineffective. But why is it ineffective? Because there are way too many powerful people with stakes in this industry. They will lose a lot of money if the prohibition is done well. Many people have been bribed, bought off etc. Is there a solution to this? I don't really know. That's like asking people to stop sinning. Maybe someone smarter than me can come up with something.

It bothers me that your arguments center on monetary gain. Would I choose to live in a poor place or an insane place with every other neighbor having mental health issues and increased crime? I would be poor probably. It's just like the people who argue about how shutting down planned parenthood would badly affect the economy or we should pass out condoms to South Africa because they are poor and shouldn't have babies (and abstinence has shown much greater results for AIDS and such, btw). Monetary matters should never trump morality and it bothers me when people hang on that reason. Which is for the greater good? More teachers or more healthy citizens around the world? Health seems greater to me.

Number two,

Your college student who gets arrested has commited a crime. Maybe he didn't think it was a real deal crime or whatever but it was. It was stupid and he was young but crimes have consequences. Compared to what could have happened to him (permanent mental dysfunction), he was let off easy. Why did God let this happen to this guy compared to all the others who used it but didn't get caught? I don't know but we must believe that divine providence has a plan for him and that God wishes for his happiness. Maybe he'll convert, who knows? We cannot rip up all of our laws for these unfortunate cirvumstances. His life is not ruined forever and he will find a way to get a job again. It will be harder than others to get a job but he will get one. Life isn't fair and we as Catholics should know that. We don't live in a utopia and to try to make one is foolish. That's how communism started.

Fourth

Marijuana is much, much stronger than alcohol so I am inclined to think that it is a mortal sin most of the time. Now, even if I am wrong and sometimes it is not so strong, you are still consciously choosing to harm your god-given body with it. But, really now, it is not the same thing as having a beer. And, I have a lot of negative associations with alcohol but I'm still going to be fair about this. Prostitution is a very big mortal sin and it is worse than marijuana in a lot of ways but that's not the point. This is about marijuana's effect on society at large. I feel like you're leading me on a cat-chase here.

Former Buddhist has very generously (thank you) conceded that in his personal life he has experienced 'bad trips' that were disturbing for him. I would wish that had been spared of that and conclude that it has, in fact, had an effect on his brain. Of course, I wish him all the best of health and a speedy recovery if he chooses to forgo it someday.

If you want evidence on violent crimes then look up Peter Hitchens and see what he has discovered about the link. Or read anything he has wrote about it.  He's a very gutsy smart guy. Of course, it wouldn't be generally known.because of the big powerful people making sure that nobody is allowed to ask those sorts of questions. Overdose isn't the issue, it's about long term and short term effects. I'm not surprised that you think it's harmless because this is a widely spread belief for obvious purposes.

I'm sorry this is upsetting you but I appreciate the debate.  I'm learning quite a bit here from both sides.  :)
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#33
(06-20-2018, 07:44 PM)Sacred Heart lover Wrote:
(06-20-2018, 06:58 PM)Cecilia9 Wrote: Oh, this is too irresistible. You are tempting me too much haha. Debating is kind of addictive, isn't it? I swear, after this I'm finished.

So, a lot of things to address here.

First of all, you argue that it would be better to legalize so that we would stop wasting money on an ineffective system. You are right that it is ineffective. But why is it ineffective? Because there are way too many powerful people with stakes in this industry. They will lose a lot of money if the prohibition is done well. Many people have been bribed, bought off etc. Is there a solution to this? I don't really know. That's like asking people to stop sinning. Maybe someone smarter than me can come up with something.

It bothers me that your arguments center on monetary gain. Would I choose to live in a poor place or an insane place with every other neighbor having mental health issues and increased crime? I would be poor probably. It's just like the people who argue about how shutting down planned parenthood would badly affect the economy or we should pass out condoms to South Africa because they are poor and shouldn't have babies (and abstinence has shown much greater results for AIDS and such, btw). Monetary matters should never trump morality and it bothers me when people hang on that reason. Which is for the greater good? More teachers or more healthy citizens around the world? Health seems greater to me.

Number two,

Your college student who gets arrested has commited a crime. Maybe he didn't think it was a real deal crime or whatever but it was. It was stupid and he was young but crimes have consequences. Compared to what could have happened to him (permanent mental dysfunction), he was let off easy. Why did God let this happen to this guy compared to all the others who used it but didn't get caught? I don't know but we must believe that divine providence has a plan for him and that God wishes for his happiness. Maybe he'll convert, who knows? We cannot rip up all of our laws for these unfortunate cirvumstances. His life is not ruined forever and he will find a way to get a job again. It will be harder than others to get a job but he will get one. Life isn't fair and we as Catholics should know that. We don't live in a utopia and to try to make one is foolish. That's how communism started.

Fourth

Marijuana is much, much stronger than alcohol so I am inclined to think that it is a mortal sin most of the time. Now, even if I am wrong and sometimes it is not so strong, you are still consciously choosing to harm your god-given body with it. But, really now, it is not the same thing as having a beer. And, I have a lot of negative associations with alcohol but I'm still going to be fair about this. Prostitution is a very big mortal sin and it is worse than marijuana in a lot of ways but that's not the point. This is about marijuana's effect on society at large. I feel like you're leading me on a cat-chase here.

Former Buddhist has very generously (thank you) conceded that in his personal life he has experienced 'bad trips' that were disturbing for him. I would wish that had been spared of that and conclude that it has, in fact, had an effect on his brain. Of course, I wish him all the best of health and a speedy recovery if he chooses to forgo it someday.

If you want evidence on violent crimes then look up Peter Hitchens and see what he has discovered about the link. Or read anything he has wrote about it.  He's a very gutsy smart guy. Of course, it wouldn't be generally known.because of the big powerful people making sure that nobody is allowed to ask those sorts of questions. Overdose isn't the issue, it's about long term and short term effects. I'm not surprised that you think it's harmless because this is a widely spread belief for obvious purposes.

I'm sorry this is upsetting you but I appreciate the debate.  I'm learning quite a bit here from both sides.  :)
Peace.....I just wanted to mention that as a parent who has had to wait up for children in their teens to come home sober, untouched, unharmed late at night pacing and looking out the window - well, these were times of stress and worry that are not forgotten.  So, when something like this is just taken lightly and brought in as the norm now, it is hard to take.  I can't speak for Cecilia9 but can for myself.  Thank God those days are over however I think my children will worry the same about their children eventually.  God bless & keep safe!  angeltime :heart:
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#34
(06-20-2018, 06:58 PM)Cecilia9 Wrote: First of all, you argue that it would be better to legalize so that we would stop wasting money on an ineffective system. You are right that it is ineffective. But why is it ineffective? Because there are way too many powerful people with stakes in this industry. They will lose a lot of money if the prohibition is done well. Many people have been bribed, bought off etc. Is there a solution to this? I don't really know. That's like asking people to stop sinning. Maybe someone smarter than me can come up with something.

Alcohol's legal, and alcohol companies don't bribe the police or shoot each other. Tobacco's legal, and there are all sorts of regulations about what they have to put on their packaging, and they're not allowed to advertise most places, and they've been sued by people who claimed they said tobacco was good for you, or at least failed to say otherwise while portraying smoking as glamorous. The tobacco companies have plenty of lobbyists, but they also have plenty of regulation. Of course, much of that is in their interest (if there's no advertising, they all make more money) but it's not corrupt in the way drug producers are. 

But I don't think bribery and such is the only reason it's ineffective. On the supply side, yes, it's money-related - there's far too much money to be made due to the inflated prices that people are willing to risk years in prison for it. Maybe it would work if the penalties were much harsher. Singapore executes drug traffickers, but we know how long the death penalty takes to carry out in the US. And if you can make huge amounts of money, do a few years, and get out and still have all that money, it's worth it to people. On the demand side, there's addiction - people might want to stop using, but they can't, and get in trouble over and over again because of it, when the only thing they've done is get high. They're harming themselves, but we don't put people who eat fast food every day in jail.




(06-20-2018, 06:58 PM)Cecilia9 Wrote: It bothers me that your arguments center on monetary gain. Would I choose to live in a poor place or an insane place with every other neighbor having mental health issues and increased crime? I would be poor probably. It's just like the people who argue about how shutting down planned parenthood would badly affect the economy or we should pass out condoms to South Africa because they are poor and shouldn't have babies (and abstinence has shown much greater results for AIDS and such, btw). Monetary matters should never trump morality and it bothers me when people hang on that reason. Which is for the greater good? More teachers or more healthy citizens around the world? Health seems greater to me.

Money certainly isn't everything, but - especially in this context - it's not about money simply for the sake of having more stuff. "Resources" would be a better word, although I don't like the idea of people as resources. We're particularly talking about tax money, which is money forcibly taken from people and used for whatever the government feels is best. With lower taxes, maybe a woman can stay home and raise her children herself. Maybe a couple wouldn't worry so much about money and would have more children. Or they could give some of that to the poor. Instead of building another prison and paying all the guards, what if the state built a school and paid teachers more in order to attract better teachers? And maybe better education will keep some of the students off drugs.

Money doesn't trump morality, but neither can it be ignored. Not for the sake of greed, but for making decisions on how best to use what we have. The condom example is immoral, but not the same, since that's actively doing something. The Planned Parenthood example is closer, but not proportionate: if shutting it down would devastate the economy and put huge numbers of people out of work and cause people to starve, maybe it's worth allowing them to stay open. Of course, the reality is that shutting them down would do no such thing, and the number of babies killed by them is high enough that they should be shut down.

Health is important, but why is it the government's responsibility? Should junk food be illegal, where you go to jail for eating too many Chee-tos? Should a judge be allowed to force fat people to diet, with jail as the consequence for failing to lose weight? What about things like auto racing and mountain climbing and skydiving, where there's a good risk of death or serious injury? Should that be illegal if society has to bear the medical costs of treating you?

And I'm not sure the health justification really works. Those who want to use, will. Maybe drugs being illegal stops some people, but there are still plenty who use, and prison doesn't do anything for mental health treatment. You can't force people to accept treatment, and if they just act their way through it, it won't work. As for the neighbourhood of crazies, if they're getting high and committing crimes, lock them up. If their mental problems aren't causing them to harm others, then let them sit at home and get high. Plenty of people drink, and alcohol makes people violent, too.

(06-20-2018, 06:58 PM)Cecilia9 Wrote: Marijuana is much, much stronger than alcohol so I am inclined to think that it is a mortal sin most of the time. Now, even if I am wrong and sometimes it is not so strong, you are still consciously choosing to harm your god-given body with it. But, really now, it is not the same thing as having a beer. And, I have a lot of negative associations with alcohol but I'm still going to be fair about this. Prostitution is a very big mortal sin and it is worse than marijuana in a lot of ways but that's not the point. This is about marijuana's effect on society at large. I feel like you're leading me on a cat-chase here.

There are different strengths of it, but much of it has been bred to be very strong, since illegal drug dealers have a big incentive to get their users hooked on it and don't care about the consequences. Legal sellers do care, especially now that they've seen what happened to the tobacco companies. I've never used it, so I don't know how stoned you get from just a little bit. If you are losing your use of reason from just a little marijuana, then I'd agree it's mortal. I'd still advocate toleration of it, since I think the costs (not just monetary) of prohibition outweigh the harm to society from its use. You see the harm as much worse and place a much higher value on health. I don't think either valuation is morally wrong, and this is one of those issues that Catholics can disagree on.
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#35
The fast food, McDonald's, obesity comparisons are all false because these things do not affect the brain, increase crime or destroy families. It's not a health issue in that sense.

Will decriminalizing it stop usage? For some, no but they would probably be in the criminal class. But for others, such as normal citizens, it could be a huge deterrent. There's a difference between a legally acceptable activity in the perception of the world versus something illegal.

Alcohol is illegal until 21 in America and most alcohol is allowed in Germany at around 14. What do we see in each society? Most teenagers not drinking at all unless they steal from their parents or once in a blue moon at a house party in the U.S. The teenagers who do drink are considered to be rebels but even these don't drink that much at all until they get to college where they can really 'freak out'. There isn't really a drinking culture here and parents don't expect their young ones to party.

In Germany, we see 14 year olds in clubs, bars and other locations every weekend. People don't blink an eye and let 13 year olds in because it's not really enforced. By the time these people reach 21, they will have had years of getting wasted every weekend because it was expected by society and by their peers. Teachers will ask how much they drank last Saturday. Their parents will feel ashamed if their social outcast is not participating in this party culture.

I lived in both countries when I was a teenager and older so I know that this is how it is. I tend to think that America is doing a better job. But you would argue, they will drink anyway!
Well, as you can see, there was a huge difference because of a simple law. I refuse to believe that there will be no difference with pot.

I'm surprised you said that if enough people were put out of work, you would let planned parenthood continue. I think that this a pretty black and white question. Babies dying are way more important than people losing their jobs. Mass genocide or employment. I mean, it's pretty clear.

More money for education does not mean quality education and education does not mean less people using. There was plenty of education for this in other parts of the world and people kept using. In my area in Canada, it is practically legal, we are rife with marijuana problems and there is plenty of education. I think a law is a much stronger stance for this is wrong than saying you can't do this after it's legal.

You can't lock up a neighborhood of crazies when the problem is so big that you can't handle them. That is what has happened to my husband's hometown. The police don't know what to do anymore.

But again, I don't have all the answers to this. I know that it's a complex subject about how to enforce things better etc. I don't think that legalizing it is the answer though.
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#36
(06-20-2018, 11:44 PM)Cecilia9 Wrote: I'm surprised you said that if enough people were put out of work, you would let planned parenthood continue. I think that this a pretty black and white question. Babies dying are way more important than people losing their jobs. Mass genocide or employment. I mean, it's pretty clear.

Enough unemployment, and people starve and die. Apart from a few people who actually know how to live off the land and how to obtain food, most of us would die if we had to do without modern conveniences for an extended period of time. Maybe some of us would learn.

If the question is toleration of Planned Parenthood and the deaths of a low number of babies, versus the ruin of the economy, riots, and starvation where far more people die, then the state tolerate Planned Parenthood. Do you act to save the lives of, say, 100 unborn babies if it means a million children will die of starvation? That's the sort of decisions a state has to make when choosing which evils to tolerate. No, we're not utilitarians, but this isn't the trolley problem because the state isn't actively performing abortions.

Of course, that sort of scenario isn't what would happen if Planned Parenthood would shut down. Its employees would lose their jobs, and women would have to get some of their actual healthcare elsewhere (assuming the claims of Planned Parenthood doing mammograms are true). But they murder far more than 100 babies, and it's not likely that any of its employees' families would die from it shutting down. It should be shut down, given the circumstances as they actually, are, not the silly hypothetical that the liberals say will happen (which is what I was responding to, since that's what you mentioned in your previous post).

The only reason for the state to tolerate abortion is if it prevents a worse evil, and I can't think of one that actually exists. I could (and did) think up crazy situations that could possibly exist, but they don't.
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#37
Legalize all of it.
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#38
(06-21-2018, 12:59 AM)VoxClamantis Wrote: Legalize all of it.
Who takes care of the unintended consequences?
.
In theory, I do understand and sometimes agree with the Libertarian theory, let each person be in charge of their own life.  If they want to be drunk every day, let them.  If they want to marry three people, let them - their business, their life.  If they want to live in the desert with no running water or toilet, let them.
.
But sometimes this stuff affects others.  It costs us all money.   And the heartache.
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#39
(06-20-2018, 03:41 PM)Cecilia9 Wrote: Are you joking?

Seriously, are you joking?

Alcohol, cigarettes and cannabis can all be addictive but they are not all in the same category. One of these things can mentally screw you up for the rest of your life. Period.

Debilitating mood swings, psychotic breaks, delusions, paranoia, aggression and just total insanity are some of the side effects. If you tried it once and you thought no big deal I'm fine, then you're extremely fortunate and should thank God that you're not rolling around in a mental asylum somewhere. It is a mind altering drug, people. Your brain will never be the same. Read some Peter Hitchens and see how Britain is faring with all of this. This is very bad news.

It's not a coincidence that most criminals were using cannabis when they commited their worst crimes such as mass shootings etc. And, cigarettes are a big deal. They slowly destroy your body over time so no, I really don't agree. Alcohol is the only thing on this list that is only bad with over-use.

You have a very warped and false understanding of how cannabis effects most people.  Reefer madness was propaganda.
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#40
(06-20-2018, 04:25 PM)Paradosiakos Wrote: Alcohol can’t be all bad. Jesus made the best wine ever at the wedding feast at Cana. :cheers:

And let us not forget who created the various cannabis plants to begin with!  How did the thc get there if it wasn't by God's design?  :pipe:
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