Islam and the current Catechism
#31
(07-16-2018, 11:52 AM)Poche Wrote: The Holy Trinity is a mystery. I admit to not understanding it beyond what has been revealed.

The Muslims and Jews don't just not understand it, they explicitly deny it. The point is that the Trinity HAS been revealed. If they deny it then they call God a liar.
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#32
(07-15-2018, 01:20 PM)cassini Wrote:
(07-15-2018, 11:10 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: I'm not a fan of the current Catechism's statement that Muslims worship the same God as Christians.

Anyone else on this?  And do you use the current Catechism?

Is this another incremental erosion on the way to One World Order or Masonry?

There is only one God, and He is a Trinity. The Jews may once have worshipped God in their time, but after Churst who revealed God is a Trinity, they refused to accept God the Son, Jesus Christ, as God. So they do not worship God.
Likewise, Muslims do not worship the Trinity so they do not worship the same God as Catholics. Any 'god' that is not the Trinity is not God. Indeed in the Scriptures it describes all pasgan gods as devils.

I recall once going to an 'indult' Latin Mass. In the homily the priest said Islam has the same God as Catholics. After the Mass I challenged him and he said 'Here you get Vatican II catechism, if you want tradition find a SSPX church. 'Thank you Father I said.' I found an SSPX church and found the CVatholicism I was reared with. ,Bestest advice I ever got.
  
Well said.  I agree 100%.  Anything else is of the devil.
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#33
(07-16-2018, 11:56 AM)Dominicus Wrote:
(07-16-2018, 11:52 AM)Poche Wrote: The Holy Trinity is a mystery. I admit to not understanding it beyond what has been revealed.

The Muslims and Jews don't just not understand it, they explicitly deny it. The point is that the Trinity HAS been revealed. If they deny it then they call God a liar.

But it is the same God. There is only one God. We build our evangelization on what we have in common.
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#34
(07-16-2018, 12:20 PM)Poche Wrote:
(07-16-2018, 11:56 AM)Dominicus Wrote:
(07-16-2018, 11:52 AM)Poche Wrote: The Holy Trinity is a mystery. I admit to not understanding it beyond what has been revealed.

The Muslims and Jews don't just not understand it, they explicitly deny it. The point is that the Trinity HAS been revealed. If they deny it then they call God a liar.

But it is the same God. There is only one God. We build our evangelization on what we have in common.

There is only one God (who IS a Trinity) and then there are demons posing as God. When Paul preached to the Greeks he did so in a way that they would understand but he did not try to claim that God was the same as Zeus. God is not Allah, He is infinitely greater than Allah. To try and "dumb down" God by identifying Him with Allah is not only blasphemous, it is discourteous to the Muslims. They deserve Truth not some cheap knockoff.
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#35
I am not sure if they worship the same God, some religions might worship idols and demons who have manifested themselves in the past. What is clear is that they know that there is a God, but they do not know Who He Is or what He wants us to do.
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#36
(07-16-2018, 12:19 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(07-15-2018, 01:34 PM)Dominicus Wrote: Muslims and Jews worship God materially but not formally. They believe they worship God but in reality worship false gods of their own creation.

I can think of a few Catholics who likewise believe they worship God but in fact worship idols dressed like Him.

For the less philosophically astute, a formal difference with material similarity, is like a cup of water and a man. When its sitting on the table it is water, once the man drinks it, it becomes part of the man, and is no longer water.

Thus, Muslims and Jews may seem externally to worship God.

In fact, they do not.

Could explain this in more detail? Also, what do you think of this argument (I wrote this for an older thread):

Here’s my understanding as to why we can say Muslims acknowledge and even worship the same God as us.

First, I think there should be noted the difference between worshiping God in Spirit and in truth, offering Him “true worship,” having supernatural faith, obeying Him, etc., and acknowledging God or worshiping God according to the virtue of religion (which is not a theological virtue, but a natural virtue that falls under justice).

St. Thomas defines this virtue in the Summa as “to show reverence to one God under one aspect, namely, as the first principle of the creation and government of things.” newadvent.org/summa/3081.htm

Can Muslims do this? They certainly worship “God” as First Principle and Supreme Governor of all things, but is it the same God we know? Can one acknowledge the one God without acknowledging the Trinity?

First, faith is required to acknowledge the Trinity. The Trinity cannot be reasoned out, as St. Thomas explains:


Quote:I answer that, It is impossible to attain to the knowledge of the Trinity by natural reason. For, as above explained (12, 4, 12), man cannot obtain the knowledge of God by natural reason except from creatures. Now creatures lead us to the knowledge of God, as effects do to their cause. Accordingly, by natural reason we can know of God that only which of necessity belongs to Him as the principle of things, and we have cited this fundamental principle in treating of God as above (Question 12, Article 12). Now, the creative power of God is common to the whole Trinity; and hence it belongs to the unity of the essence, and not to the distinction of the persons. Therefore, by natural reason we can know what belongs to the unity of the essence, but not what belongs to the distinction of the persons.


newadvent.org/summa/1032.htm

Therefore, we can know of God, as the Principle of all things, apart from faith, but we can only know of the Trinity with faith since it is a revealed dogma. The First Vatican Council also defined that God can be known from natural reason alone (Dei Filius, Canon 2.1) and St. Paul says, on account of this, those who do not acknowledge God (but worship idols, are atheists, etc.) are without excuse (Rom. 1:20).

Therefore, one can acknowledge the one God and Creator of all things without having faith and believing in the Trinity. But do Muslims do this?

How can we say whether or not we are talking about the same thing? It is the essence of the thing that determines what it is. If we acknowledge the same essence, we acknowledge the same thing. What we can say about the essence of God is that it is the same as His existence. This is summed up as “God is” or, in His own words, “I AM” or “I AM who AM.” (Exo. 3:14).

God is a purely self-existent being that exists in complete actuality. God is not a being that is created by another god; neither does God create Himself into existence. Rather, God has always existed as an unchanging, completely actualized being. God has his Being of himself and to himself such that he is absolute being and the very definition of existence (see Acts 17:22-28). Since God’s existence is the same as his essence, it follows that God is existence. (Note: this is not to assert pantheism. All other beings participate in his existence on a contingency and thus do not possess the essence of God. Therefore, no other being can be said to be a god or share a part in the godhead since they exist solely on a contingency.) This concept is at the root of the definition of all of God’s other perfections because if God is absolute being he must logically contain in Himself all perfections of being.

Since God’s essence is existence, if one acknowledges His essence, one can only acknowledge He who exists–it is impossible to acknowledge a completely actualized being that is not the one and only God. Similarly, there cannot exist two of such beings, because then neither would contain in Himself all perfections of being.

The CE article on Essence and Existence sums up the Thomistic position as follows:

Catholic Encyclopedia:


Quote:-If essence and existence were but one thing, we should be unable to conceive the one without conceiving the other. But we are as a fact able to conceive of essence by itself.
-If there be no real distinction between the two, then the essence is identical with the existence. But in God alone are these identical.

newadvent.org/cathen/05543b.htm

Since Muslims do conceive of God as being completely self-actualized, of being non-contingent, then they therefore can only be said to acknowledge the one God who exists and it is to Him that they honor as First Principle and Creator according to the virtue of religion.

For this reason, they are traditionally classified as a special case of infidel (ie persons without faith), not as idolaters (those who worship a false god, that either exists or doesn't). Honestly, I cannot find any sources from the Church saying otherwise.
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#37
(07-16-2018, 12:20 PM)Poche Wrote:
(07-16-2018, 11:56 AM)Dominicus Wrote:
(07-16-2018, 11:52 AM)Poche Wrote: The Holy Trinity is a mystery. I admit to not understanding it beyond what has been revealed.

The Muslims and Jews don't just not understand it, they explicitly deny it. The point is that the Trinity HAS been revealed. If they deny it then they call God a liar.

But it is the same God. There is only one God. We build our evangelization on what we have in common.

There is only one God, as in uncreated Creator, yes.  However, the first commandment is clear that it is possible to "make" strange "gods".  This is where the concept behind the sin of idolatry is from.  To say otherwise is to say that no one could possibly be an idolater, they would simply be uninformed or in error of some predication of God. 

It is one thing not to know the Triune God/uncreated Creator, and it is another thing altogether to deny the Triune God/uncreated Creator and then either explicitly or implicitly raise up a false god to serve for preternatural favors.

When the Jews or Moslems deny the Trinity, they make it clear that they do not serve the Trinity.  The only conclusion is that they are serving an idol.

When Jews or Moslems, not knowing of the Trinity, speak about their god, they very well could be speaking of the Trinity, but simply be without the necessarily revelation to make a conclusion one way or another.  Even pagans like Aristotle got the essence of God correct, so why not also a Jew or Moslem?

We can't say "all" Moslems or Jews on anything doctrinal, just as we can't say "all" protestants or pagans.
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#38
(07-16-2018, 06:26 AM)Jacafamala Wrote: No, I don't think they worship the same God, because without Christ they can't know God. So how can they worship a God they don't even know? BTW, the Baltimore Catechism is straight up and good enough for me.

You mean like St Paul told the Greeks when he noticed their altar dedicated "To the unknown god"?

The Church says Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the same God. One can intend to worship a particular god while doing so in a manner displeasing that god. It's for the Church to interpret the words of our Lord, not us, and at the time He told the Jews they have not the Father, the Old Covenant was still in effect and the sacrifices in the temple were still occurring. Was the high priest sacrificing to a false god, or to the Father?
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#39
(07-16-2018, 02:09 PM)yablabo Wrote: When the Jews or Moslems deny the Trinity, they make it clear that they do not serve the Trinity.  The only conclusion is that they are serving an idol.

Not necessarily in a way that brings salvation, but why can't one worship the Trinity while denying that He is, in fact, a Trinity, just like the sedevacantist can talk about a man named Jorge Bergoglio while denying that he's Pope.

If the Church says Muslims worship the same god, we should at least consider what the Church says. And, historically, Mohammedism has been considered a heresy. Even in the old baptismal rite, when converts renounce their old religion, Judaism and Islam are separate from paganism.
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#40
(07-16-2018, 04:23 PM)Paul Wrote:
(07-16-2018, 02:09 PM)yablabo Wrote: When the Jews or Moslems deny the Trinity, they make it clear that they do not serve the Trinity.  The only conclusion is that they are serving an idol.

Not necessarily in a way that brings salvation, but why can't one worship the Trinity while denying that He is, in fact, a Trinity, just like the sedevacantist can talk about a man named Jorge Bergoglio while denying that he's Pope.

If the Church says Muslims worship the same god, we should at least consider what the Church says. And, historically, Mohammedism has been considered a heresy. Even in the old baptismal rite, when converts renounce their old religion, Judaism and Islam are separate from paganism.

There isn't a likeness in your comparison.

God is one simple being.  He is immutable and without any accidents (in the philosophical sense of accidents inhering in a substance).  He is a Trinity.  To say you're worshiping a god which is not the Trinity, is saying you are not worshiping the one God.

This is more closely comparable with saying that Pope Francis is not the son of Mario Bergoglio and Maria Sivori.

It is the denial of personality.  That is where the comparison lies. 

The Church doesn't say that Moslems worship the same "god" as Catholics.  The Catechism of the Catholic Church says it.  The CCC is a reference not an authoritative document.  It is supposed to refer you to the authoritative source.  Where it lacks the backing of authoritative teaching, it is simply an accretion of novelty.
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