Islam and the current Catechism

[Dominicus]

People claiming to speak for the Church also say that adulterers and heretics can receive communion. It's just more modernist ecomunism. The Church can't just say one thing and then suddenly change her mind. Thats just proof that the modernists are wrong.

[Paul]

The Church doesn't say that Moslems worship the same "god" as Catholics.  The Catechism of the Catholic Church says it.  The CCC is a reference not an authoritative document.  It is supposed to refer you to the authoritative source.  Where it lacks the backing of authoritative teaching, it is simply an accretion of novelty.

It's from a Council of the Church, not just the Catechism. Yes, I know Vatican II didn't teach anything binding, but if this is outright heresy in a document of an ecumenical council, there's only two conclusions, and one of them makes no sense, since the Church is a visible society.

"The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting."

[yablabo]

The Church doesn't say that Moslems worship the same "god" as Catholics.  The Catechism of the Catholic Church says it.  The CCC is a reference not an authoritative document.  It is supposed to refer you to the authoritative source.  Where it lacks the backing of authoritative teaching, it is simply an accretion of novelty.

It's from a Council of the Church, not just the Catechism. Yes, I know Vatican II didn't teach anything binding, but if this is outright heresy in a document of an ecumenical council, there's only two conclusions, and one of them makes no sense, since the Church is a visible society.

"The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting."

There's nothing that prevents heresy from being recorded or spoken at an ecumenical council.  I doubt Arius would have been suffered otherwise....or the error of conciliarism found in the documents of the Council of Constance (also rejected at the same Council by Pope Martin V), etc.

No dogmatic definition was made in the documents of Vatican II...and error, even heresy, in the documents of Vatican II would not contradict the Pope's infallible magisterium.  The only material binding on the assent of faith from a council is the solemn judgment of the Holy Father.  Ecumenical Councils are the tools of the Holy Father in defining doctrine concerning faith and morals, which includes the condemnation of error, without the possibility of erring.  When we find novelties in such a novel council which does neither we should not be surprised.

[Markie Boy]

But isn't the Catechism a reflection of the majority of thought in the Church hierarchy? They are the ones that create the Catechism and condone it?

So I'm not saying it's Church Dogma, but a reflection of the major thought lines of leaders.

[jovan66102]

I'm not a fan of the current Catechism's statement that Muslims worship the same God as Christians.

Anyone else on this?  And do you use the current Catechism?

Is this another incremental erosion on the way to One World Order or Masonry?

I suggest you read this, BOOK OF ACCUSATION, To his Holiness pope John Paul II, book of accusation for
HERESY against the Author of the supposed catechism of the catholic Church a catechism of pride, a catechesis of deceit, by Fr. Georges de Nantes

[Markie Boy]

Thank you - I'll try to check it out!

[Sacred Heart lover]

Credidi Proper
I recall once going to an 'indult' Latin Mass. In the homily the priest said Islam has the same God as Catholics. After the Mass I challenged him and he said 'Here you get Vatican II catechism, if you want tradition find a SSPX church. 'Thank you Father I said.' I found an SSPX church and found the CVatholicism I was reared with. ,Bestest advice I ever got.

I was raised on the new Catechism and was taught Islam/Judaism had the same God as Catholics.  When I first started attending the FSSP I listened to a homily saying that they were not the same God and was very leery of that.

I was also raised to believe that ecumenism was a good thing (Charismatics believe this) and now that I've learned what the endgame is, namely a one world religion/Luciferianism, it's so clear that this is all part of the evil incremental steps to bring us closer to that end.

In any case, I wanted everyone to know that was my experience, and I don't believe most Traditional priests are of the same ilk as what you experienced.

[Credidi Propter]

Credidi Proper
I recall once going to an 'indult' Latin Mass. In the homily the priest said Islam has the same God as Catholics. After the Mass I challenged him and he said 'Here you get Vatican II catechism, if you want tradition find a SSPX church. 'Thank you Father I said.' I found an SSPX church and found the CVatholicism I was reared with. ,Bestest advice I ever got.

I was raised on the new Catechism and was taught Islam/Judaism had the same God as Catholics.  When I first started attending the FSSP I listened to a homily saying that they were not the same God and was very leery of that.

I was also raised to believe that ecumenism was a good thing (Charismatics believe this) and now that I've learned what the endgame is, namely a one world religion/Luciferianism, it's so clear that this is all part of the evil incremental steps to bring us closer to that end.

In any case, I wanted everyone to know that was my experience, and I don't believe most Traditional priests are of the same ilk as what you experienced.

I'm glad you mentioned the charismatic movement.  I get the impression from those who are involved in it that the doctrine of the Faith is "nice," but what really matters is the charismatic experience.  That can be dangerous, because by doing that people make idols out of their emotions.  Additionally, people who are caught up in that often leave the Church completely as soon as they face difficulty in the Church, because they put too much trust in their fickle emotions instead of the Unchanging Truth of Christ and His Church.

[Markie Boy]

The Charismatic movement almost made me leave the Church after coming in. I was from a strong Biblical Baptist background, and spotting the Charismatic wrongs was easy.

But here, the Charismatics are some of the few that are not totally lacking any zeal for their faith, and the more traditional Pro Lifer's. There is no FSSP or SSPX, it's mostly Vatican 2 lukewarm, wishy washy.

To me, the mere fact that the Vatican allows and promotes the Charismatic movement (or are they using it for their one world end game?), is so insane. At times I admire Orthodoxy. The Orthodox seem to have a strong resistance and do well keeping out the Charismatic falsehood, far better than Rome.

I tried to explain these wrongs to the Charismatics, but they have the backing of our bishop and some priests. I just don't look to them for much.

[JacafamalaRedux]

The Holy Trinity is a mystery. I admit to not understanding it beyond what has been revealed.

The Muslims and Jews don't just not understand it, they explicitly deny it. The point is that the Trinity HAS been revealed. If they deny it then they call God a liar.

But it is the same God. There is only one God. We build our evangelization on what we have in common.

If you asked a Jew or a Muslim if they worship our God, I should think they'd say "no", wouldn't they?