Which Church?
#1
There are Trads like myself who would not recommend the Novus Ordo to anyone. But what if you live in a country where the Latin Mass is almost non existent ? Where would you point a non Christian seeking the Lord Jesus?. The Evangelicals seem to be on fire for the Lord right across the globe. Must we begrudge people who join their ranks?
And how are we to cope with all the Trad variants like Indult,  SSPX, Sedes, Independents.How can we tell a seeker that Catholic truth is to be found in one of the above groups but not the others?
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#2
(07-19-2018, 12:01 PM)francisco Wrote: And how are we to cope with all the Trad variants like Indult,  SSPX, Sedes, Independents.How can we tell a seeker that Catholic truth is to be found in one of the above groups but not the others?

Simple: you can't.  The above is a scandal to the idea that the Catholic Church is one, undivided.
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#3
(07-19-2018, 12:06 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(07-19-2018, 12:01 PM)francisco Wrote: And how are we to cope with all the Trad variants like Indult,  SSPX, Sedes, Independents.How can we tell a seeker that Catholic truth is to be found in one of the above groups but not the others?

Simple: you can't.  The above is a scandal to the idea that the Catholic Church is one, undivided.

:eyeroll:

This fantasy idea that if the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church has ANY problems and ANY disagreements it’s somehow all false is beyond moronic. 

The Church has had to deal with heresies before. It’s had to deal with corrupt heirarchies before. Our Lady told us this chastisement was coming. Pray. Join a traditional parish. Pray. Study the Faith. Make reparation.
Ave Christus Rex!
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#4
(07-19-2018, 12:16 PM)Some Guy Wrote:
(07-19-2018, 12:06 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(07-19-2018, 12:01 PM)francisco Wrote: And how are we to cope with all the Trad variants like Indult,  SSPX, Sedes, Independents.How can we tell a seeker that Catholic truth is to be found in one of the above groups but not the others?

Simple: you can't.  The above is a scandal to the idea that the Catholic Church is one, undivided.

:eyeroll:

This fantasy idea that if the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church has ANY problems and ANY disagreements it’s somehow all false is beyond moronic. 

The Church has had to deal with heresies before. It’s had to deal with corrupt heirarchies before. Our Lady told us this chastisement was coming. Pray. Join a traditional parish. Pray. Study the Faith. Make reparation.

So, when you have indult and SSPX masses, and also sede groups who don't recognize the validity of the current Pope, and independents who act outside of the authority and body of the Catholic Church, you don't see any scandal in that, or how someone who isn't Catholic might see that as evidence that the Church isn't what it claims to be?  Like, you can't even imagine how that might make it difficult to evangelize some people?
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#5
Do I see scandal in the existence of Eastern Orthodox? Do I see scandal in the existence of Protestants? Y

Sede groups are far from scandalous. A group out there says the current Pope isn’t Pope? Oh now surely that means the Catholic Faith is false!

SSPX is not in schism. Sorry they’re strategy to fix the theology and praxis of the Faith isn’t the same as the FSSP and IoCtK?

Yes I’m very aware of how difficult it makes evangelizing... I try to talk about Catholicism with just about everyone I’m with.

Your entire premise is that because people disagree, they means it can’t be true. -_-

Faith is important. We aren’t Protestants who make up our own theology. We don’t make our own church. If that’s a stumbling block for you, pray for Faith, Hope, and Charity more.
Ave Christus Rex!
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#6
(07-19-2018, 02:33 PM)Some Guy Wrote: Do I see scandal in the existence of Eastern Orthodox? Do I see scandal in the existence of Protestants? Y

Sede groups are far from scandalous. A group out there says the current Pope isn’t Pope? Oh now surely that means the Catholic Faith is false!

SSPX is not in schism. Sorry they’re strategy to fix the theology and praxis of the Faith isn’t the same as the FSSP and IoCtK?


Yes I’m very aware of how difficult it makes evangelizing... I try to talk about Catholicism with just about everyone I’m with.

Your entire premise is that because people disagree, they means it can’t be true. -_-

Faith is important. We aren’t Protestants who make up our own theology. We don’t make our own church. If that’s a stumbling block for you, pray for Faith, Hope, and Charity more.

It's not that sede groups say that the Pope isn't Pope that is scandalous (or at least, not the main part), it is that they say that he isn't pope, and that they are the true Catholics.  This isn't substantially different from what the Eastern Orthodox say.

I worded it as SSPX with the indult, separate from either the sedes or the independents.

My premise is that if you have 5 different groups who disagree and are not part of the same body, but they each identify as the same one body, then that means at least 4 groups are wrong, and the fifth may be as well.  You then have a very hard time of knowing which group is really the Church that it claims to be, because merely claiming it is is not sufficient to prove it. And this is why I responded to the original question as I did. "How can we tell a seeker that Catholic truth is to be found in one of the above groups but not the others?" "Simple: you can't."
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#7
(07-19-2018, 03:18 PM)Melkite Wrote: "How can we tell a seeker that Catholic truth is to be found in one of the above groups but not the others?" "Simple: you can't."

Hold my beer.

The Truth is found in the Catholic Church. The one True Church. Francis is Pope, one does not just get to simply decide for themselves when someone isn't Pope, SSPX has an irregular status due to their more staunch resistance of modernism, and the FSSP and IofCtK are in full communion. In my opinion it's best to be with the FSSP or IoCtK, but I also deeply sympathize with the SSPX. We were warned by Our Lady and by various Popes and clergy of the dangers of modernism. The warnings were either not enough or were not taken seriously enough. It is very well documented that both (((communists and freemasons))) have been slipping men of their own ranks into the seminaries in order to destroy the Church from the inside. Vatican II also did not define dogma. Which means it's not infallible. It simply changed up praxis. Which is the philosophical foundation of modernism. Modernism = praxis determines theology. Rather than the norm which = theology determines praxis. Meaning rather than the eternal Truths of the Faith (Scripture, Tradition, etc) determining how we act it out (both in the world and in the liturgy), modernists posit that how we decide to live out the Faith will determine what needs to be believed. One way or another, by the grace of God, The Church will be purged of these heretics. It might not be soon. And that's a hard pill to swallow. But how were early Christians supposed to evangelize to those who never witnessed any miracles and never saw Jesus? What were early gentile converts to supposed to think of this wacky Jewish sect who wanted to start accepting outsiders, but were all getting fed to lions? We were told the world would hate us. 

So yea. There ya go. I can.
Ave Christus Rex!
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#8
(07-19-2018, 12:01 PM)francisco Wrote: There are Trads like myself who would not recommend the Novus Ordo to anyone. But what if you live in a country where the Latin Mass is almost non existent ? Where would you point a non Christian seeking the Lord Jesus?. The Evangelicals seem to be on fire for the Lord right across the globe. Must we begrudge people who join their ranks?
And how are we to cope with all the Trad variants like Indult,  SSPX, Sedes, Independents.How can we tell a seeker that Catholic truth is to be found in one of the above groups but not the others?
 
For starters, Catholics first need to realize there can be only one true position on the current situation in the Catholic Church. The SSPX believes the pope is true but teaches error so they ignore him. The Novus ordo believes the pope is true and that what he teaches his Orthodox. The sedevacantists believe a pope cannot teach error and therefore the current Pope is an imposter. All 3 of these positions, cannot all be true at the same time, since they are directly opposed to one another. It is totally illogical to say that God is equally pleased with all 3 positions given that there are such major differences in each.

So your first goal as a Catholic today is to determine which position is the correct one. This leaves all other positions as false. Once you determine this, you would need to find the nearest Mass to you and attend it as often as you can, even if it means getting on a plane and going to another country a few times a year.

The Latin Mass is not some magical solution - it is whether the clergy saying the Mass are true clergy and actually have the faith or not.
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#9
(07-19-2018, 05:47 PM)pabbie Wrote: So your first goal as a Catholic today is to determine which position is the correct one.

No.

Your first duty as a Catholic is to sanctify your soul, practice virtue, pray and try to keep yourself in the State of Grace, or get there if you've lost it.

Eventually, yes, we will be confronted with dealing with the practical realities of the Crisis in the Church. There will be differing replies and responses to it. We may disagree which is correct, and that is fine. The very fact that there is a Crisis, means that there is confusion and ambiguity, and we do not have the leaders and resources we normally would to help us know the Truth.

When that time comes, and not before, we should study the matter, take advice, try to understand the different issue, and then act on whatever, after prayerful reflection and study, seems the best way to save our soul. Whatever position we do take up, we should be ready to continually consider. To find someone who is an intransigent FSSP person unwilling to consider his position is as bad as a Sedevecantist who refuses to consider and defend his position.

In the end, however, we will not be asked to take up the correct "position" but if we corresponded with the grace God gave us, and thus kept ourselves in the State of Grace and grew in Virtue.
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#10
(07-19-2018, 06:29 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: Your first duty as a Catholic is to sanctify your soul, practice virtue, pray and try to keep yourself in the State of Grace, or get there if you've lost it.

THIS, in spades! I am continually bothered by Trads who forget this obvious fact! Did the average Catholic during the Western Schism worry about who was really Pope? I seriously doubt it. I'm sure they just kept plodding along, trying to get to heaven.
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