I Dont Have Enough Faith to be an Evolutionist - Skepticism of Evolution
(06-10-2019, 08:13 AM)cassini Wrote:
(06-09-2019, 04:36 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(06-09-2019, 12:25 PM)cassini Wrote: THE 1664 INDEX OF POPE ALEXANDER VII 

     Pope Alexander VII in 1664, in his bull " Speculatores," solemnly sanctioned the condemnation of all books affirming the earth's movement. 

     In 1664 the Index, signed by Alexander VII, stated: "We, having taken the advice of our Cardinals, confirm and approve with Apostolic authority by the tenor of these presents, and command and enjoin all persons everywhere to yield to this Index a constant and complete obedience." This Index included earlier condemnations and all the "relevant decrees, that have been issued since the Index of our predecessor, Clement." Papal Infallibility, therefore, is exerted in this Papal Bull of Alexander VII which reaffirms the condemnation of the Galileo heresy in the Index itself.

    It is obvious (and has been stated before) this situation has two points for its authority:

 1. The decrees of the Index and the Inquisition which were based on the truth of the Church's tradition, especially as in this case it rested upon the unanimity of the Fathers and the constant position of the Church; and 2. The Infallibility of the Pope, speaking in his own official capacity as Head of the Church and therefore Ex Cathedra, not defining any new dogma but simply affirming tradition.

Speculatores does not mention Copernicanism anywhere in its text.

It re-publishes and collates the list of books that were prohibited. The phrase you quote and what is "confirmed and approved" is the list of books that was forbidden by the Index, that includes the forbidding of books on Copernicanism as much as books of literature which were considered against the Faith. You then seem to suggest that because a later decree republished these lists, then it makes everything condemned within them heretical? Is that your claim?

You will find if you read the whole of Speculatores (and not just quote the English section that you can find on Wikipedia) that it never gives a reason why books were forbidden, and notably, since the Index was later modified not only as relates to Copernicanism, this is clearly a Papal, but disciplinary bull, not a doctrinal or dogmatic matter.

Since it never defines any doctrine to be held with faith, nor the morality or immorality of an action to be also held with faith, it cannot be infallible or irreformable (and the fact that the Index was reformed and changed even before 1800 demonstrates this). While it does meet the specific approval of the Pope criteria, it misses out on others. It does not, for instance, teach that something must be asserted by Faith. It does instruct on what must be done which is discipline.

David Palm has a decent explanation at https://www.geocentrismdebunked.org/geoc...documents/

Interesting to note in that article that Robert Sungenis admits that the 1616 and 1633 Decree are not magisterial, so to the point you keep claiming : even the big name Geocentrists don't think the 1616 Decree infallible.

‘Towards the end of his Pontificate, it occurred to Alexander VII that it was his duty, as guardian of the household of Israel, to compose and place before the faithful a new Index of prohibited books that should be complete up to his time, and be more conveniently arranged than former indices. Whereupon he set to work with a specially chosen number of Cardinals and in the March of 1664 there issued from the Vatican press a book entitled Index Librorum prohibitorum Alexandri VII. Pontificis Maximi jussu editus. It was prefaced by a Bull wherein the Pope describes this composition of his Index and gives reasons for putting it forth…
Super observatione Indicis librorum pro­hibitorum noviter impressi.
Alexander Papa VII, ad perpetuam rei memoriam
“For this purpose,” pursues the Pontiff, “we have caused the Tridentine and Clementine Indices to be added to this general Index, and also all the relevant decrees up to the present time, that have been issued since the Index of our predecessor Clement, that nothing profitable to the faithful interested in such matters might seem omitted…. we, having taken the advice of our Cardinals, confirm, and approve with Apostolic authority by the tenor of these presents, and: command and enjoin all persons everywhere to yield this Index a constant and complete obedience.”
Turning to this Index, we find among the decrees the Pope caused to be added thereto, the following: the “Quia ad notitiam” of 1616; the “monitum” of 1620, declaring the principles advocated by Copernicus on the position and movement of the Earth to be “repugnant to Scripture and to its true and catholic interpretation;” the edict signed by Cardinal Bellarmine prohibiting and condemning Kepler’s Epi­tome Astronomiæ Copernicanæ, the edict of August, 1634, prohibiting and condemning the Dialogo di Galileo Galilei; and under the heading “Libri,” we find: “Libri omnes docentes mobilitatem terræ, et immobilitatem solis, in decree 5 Martii, 1616.” These, therefore, were some of the things the Pope confirmed and approved with apostolic authority by the tenor of his Bull. It is clear, there­fore, that the condemnation of Copernicanism was ratified and approved by the Pope himself, not merely behind the scenes, but publicly in the face of the whole Church, by the authority of a Bull addressed to all the faithful. Nay, more - and I call particular attention to this point - the Index to which the decrees in question were attached, was confirmed and approved by the Pope, not as a thing external to the Bull, but as though actually in it, “quem præsentibus nostris pro inserto haberi volumus;” and therefore it, and all it contained, came to the Church directly from the Pope himself, speaking to her as her Head, “as guardian of the household of Israel, as the shepherd who had to take care of the Lord’s flock, to protect it from the evils that threatened it, to see that the sheep redeemed by the precious blood of the Saviour were not led astray from the path of truth.”’ --- Fr Roberts, The Pontifical Decrees, p.92-3.  

If at first you can't succeed ... pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

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RE: I Dont Have Enough Faith to be an Evolutionist - Skepticism of Evolution - by MagisterMusicae - 06-10-2019, 04:12 PM

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