I Dont Have Enough Faith to be an Evolutionist - Skepticism of Evolution
(06-20-2019, 03:19 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(06-20-2019, 01:32 PM)cassini Wrote: Post after post, your man Magister keeps asking for 'proof' regarding the 1616 decree and indeed the 1633 trial of Galileo that had him up for the 1616 heresy. I repeat over 6,000 books, 10,000 articles and millions of websites tell the history of the Galileo case. But Magister doesn't seem to understand this history exists.

Cassini, this is the fundamental problem with feckless zealots like yourself : you can't help but interpret everything according to your own lens. It's not that you cannot give a simple answer, but you cannot even understand a simple request.

I really hope it's just this blind zeal and not intentional malice on your part, but I have never asked for "proof" in a general sense. I have asked for one very specific thing. I have asked for specific evidence that the Decree of the Congregation of the Index from 1616.

You have plentiful times provided "proof" from other resources, mostly just copying and pasting from your Word file of Fr Roberts' book, but that was not what was asked for.

I understand the history, but the fundamental flaw in your case comes down to one very specific thing : whether the Pope approved in forma specifica the 1616 Decree you claim is infallible. Cite whomever you want, but if you cannot show this, your entire case falls apart, and again and again, you dodge the question, more often than a corrupt politician.

I'd remind you that I've not proposed heliocentrism here, but only taken aim at your case, and you've never been able to answer that rebuttal under the terms I have offered. You've never said those terms are unfair, you just, like a used-car salesman start talking about how nice the chrome on this jalopy's bumper is and the history of the chrome-plating industry, when I've asked about the odometer's certification.

At first I was tempted to read this as just bitter zeal, but now I cannot help but think that, perhaps, you actually do understand the question, and do not have a response. Your progression of responses follows that classical pattern and has already lead you to double down on blasphemous and heretical statements in defense of your obsession. We may mock and tease you here, but the whole point is to show you that your claim is erroneous and has already led you to abandon the Catholic Faith. We're concerned for your soul, and those others you and Bob may lead away from the Catholic Faith.

As alphonse will see I have placed emphasis on the question you keep asking. How many times must I point out that if it was not considered an act of the Pope's ordinary magisterium, in forma specifica, Pope Urban VIII could not have charged Galileo with heresy. The Pope could not have included in his sentence against Galileo

 "since an opinion [heliocentrism] can in no manner be probable which has been declared, and defined to be, contrary to the divine Scripture.”

The sentence continued: “Invoking, then, the most holy Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and that of His most glorious Mother Mary ever Virgin, by this our definitive sentence we say, pronounce, judge, and declare, that you, the said Galileo, on account of these things proved against you by documentary evidence, and which have been confessed by you as aforesaid, have rendered yourself to this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy, that is, of having believed and held a doctrine which is false and contrary to the sacred and divine Scriptures -to wit, that the sun is in the centre of the world, and that it does not move from east to west, and that the Earth moves, and is not the centre of the universe; and that an opinion can be held and defended as probable after it has been declared and defined to be contrary to Holy Scripture.

You will, as I said a dozen times, find this ruling in every book written on Galileo, and in the records of the Church.

To be condemned as a heretic Galileo would have had to admit interior dissent to the prohibition of heliocentrism as a truth consonant with Scripture. Exterior assent such as that in his book was not enough to show what was in his heart. Without a confession, which Galileo did not admit to, the Holy Office could not assume nor condemn something it cannot know with certainty. Thus Galileo was found guilty of suspicion of heresy based on his writings alone.

Now the above ruling - that the 1616 decree was absolute - was passed on to all papal nuncios in Europe and all local inquisitors, professors of philosophy and mathematics, together with orders to publicise them throughout the lands. Never before was any such ruling given such publicity in the history of the Inquisition.

But Magister will not consider any of that as having any authority at all, merely Urban VIII thinking it was a papal decree. Are you even hinting Magister that Pope Urban VIII did all this based on an illusion?  

What you seem to want me to show you is when a pope climbed atop of St Peter's telling the world 'the 1616 decree was not a joke, it was a papal definition that has to be irreversble, infallible.

Tell me Magister, give me one example where a pope said what he defined was infallible. That is what you have been looking for before you believe anything. You will find NO EXAMPLE (emphesis Alphonse) of such a request.

It is also recorded in the secret asrchives of the Catholic Church, what Fr Olivieri said when the Holy Office was investigating if a book on heliocentrism could be printed in 1820. Here is what Olivieri recorded in his report:

Olivieri: ‘In his “motives” the Most Rev. Anfossi puts forth “the unrevisability of pontifical decrees.” But we have already proved that this is saved, which is certainly contrary to the Sacred Scriptures, as it was declared.’

In other words, for any who cannot read, Olivieri, a heliocentrist, admitted what Fr Anfossi and other theologians of the Holy Office at the time took for granted, that the 1616 decree was unrevisable, that is it absolute, an infallible papal decree.

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RE: I Dont Have Enough Faith to be an Evolutionist - Skepticism of Evolution - by cassini - 06-20-2019, 04:28 PM

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