I Dont Have Enough Faith to be an Evolutionist - Skepticism of Evolution
(06-25-2019, 05:44 PM)Stanis Wrote:
(06-25-2019, 12:03 PM)rako Wrote: As I understand it, maybe infallibility applies in four cases according to the Church:
1. The Scripture
2. The Ecumenical Councils
3. Specific Papal Ex-Cathedra Declarations confirmed by the Church
4. The Magisterium

Yes, basically. Scripture is inspired, a positive impetus, so it's different than simple infallibility, which is a negative protection from error as defined by the Cathoilc Church.

Ecumenical councils can issue infallible statements, and (numerically speaking) most infallible statements have come from ecumenical councils rather than outside a council.

Vatican Council I defined papal ex cathedra infallibility, alone with several requirements that make it possible to identify papal statements as infallible or not, though there is still a grey area.

Finally, there is the ordinary and universal magisterium, which is also considered infallible by the Catholic Church. The difficulty is that it's never been defined in any detail. We could probably say (with St. Vincent of Lerins) that what has been believed everywhere, always and by everyone is part of the infallible ordinary and universal magisterium, but beyond that is unclear.

Since the issue at hand (geocentrism) has clearly not been believed by everyone, always, and everywhere, I don't see geocentrists trying to argue that it is ordinary and universal magisterium. Rather, they typically argue that itt was decided ex cathedra. So that's what my reply addressed.

Good post stanis, worthy of reply.

The Council of Trent was convoked in 1545 in response to the Protestant reform and rebellion against various Catholic dogmas, doctrines and tenets. Its twenty five sessions lasted eighteen years and were presided over by three popes, Pope Paul III (1534-1549), Pope Julius III (1550-1555) and finally Pope Pius IV (1559-1565). Of crucial importance is session IV of April 8, 1546.
The Vulgate Editions of the Bible is Accepted and the Method Prescribed for the Interpretation of Sacred Scripture, etc

'Furthermore, in order to curb imprudent clever persons [like the gnostics and Magisters of this Earth], the synod decrees that no one who relies on his own judgement in matters of faith and morals, which pertain to the building up of Christian doctrine, and that no one who distorts the Sacred Scripture according to his own opinions, shall dare to interpret the said Sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which is held by holy Mother Church, whose duty it is to judge regarding the true sense and interpretation of the Holy Scriptures, or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers, even though interpretations of this kind were never intended to be brought to light. Let those who shall oppose this be reported by their ordinaries and be punished with the penalties prescribed by law.’ -- (Denzinger – 783/786)
The Council of Trent was an infallible council. Nothing emerging from its canons and decrees can be questioned, doubted or overruled in any way. Note above then that the unanimous interpretation of the Fathers is here dogmatised as without error. In the wake of the Council of Trent came The Catechism of the Council of Trent for Parish Priests, issued by order and approval of Pope Pius V. Of interest to this synthesis is the teaching on the Creed that begins so:
‘I Believe in God, Almighty Father, Creator of Heaven and Earth. He followed no external form or model; but contemplating, and as it were imitating, the universal model contained in the divine intelligence, the supreme Architect, with infinite wisdom and power – attributes peculiar to the Divinity – created all things in the beginning. He spoke and they were made; He commanded and they were created.’ The words heaven and Earth include all things that the heavens and the Earth contain; for besides the heavens, which the Prophet has called the works of His fingers, He also gave to the sun its brilliancy, and to the moon and stars their beauty; and that they may be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years. He so ordered the celestial bodies in a certain and uniform course that nothing varies more than their continual revolution, while nothing is more fixed than their variety…. The Earth also God commanded to stand in the midst of the world, rooted in its own foundations [Psa. 103:5: You fixed the Earth upon its foundations, not to be moved forever], and made the mountains ascend, and the plains descend into the place that He had founded for them…. He next not only clothed and adorned it with trees and every variety of plants and flowers, but filled it, as He had already filled the air and water, with innumerable kinds of creatures…. Not only does God protect and govern all things by His Providence, but He also by an internal power impels to motion and action whatever moves and acts, and this in such a manner that, although He excludes not, He yet precedes the agency of secondary causes.--=-Catechism of the Council of Trent: Marian Publications, 1976, pp.28, 29, 30.

Now how about that, the catechism of the Council of Trent actually taught the sun moves around the Earth based on Psalms 103:5. this preceded another dogma, that God presides over all motion. This was upheld in 1616 and 1633 when it was made formal heresy to deny this Trent teaching. But along came Galileo and Isaac Newton who said matter moves itself so you cannot have the sun move around the Earth. The world believed this heretical; elimination of God's concursus and began to deny the teachings of Trent and 1616.

Now Vatican I infallibility:

‘But since the rules which the holy Synod of Trent salutary decreed concerning on the interpretation of Divine Scripture in order to restrain impetuous minds, are wrongly explained by certain men [like the Magisters of this Earth], We renewing the same decree, declare this to be its intention: that in matters of faith and morals pertaining to the instruction of Christian Doctrine, as must be considered as the true sense of Sacred Scripture which Holy Mother Church has held and holds, whose office it is to judge concerning the true understanding and interpretation of Sacred Scripture; and, for that reason, no one is permitted to interpret Scripture itself contrary to this sense, or even contrary to the unanimous agreement of the Fathers.’ (Denz. 1788)

‘The Roman Pontiffs, moreover, according to the condition of the times and affairs advised, sometimes by calling ecumenical councils… sometimes by particular synods, sometimes by employing other helps which divine providence supplied [the Holy Office] , have defined that those matters must be held which with God’s help they have recognised as in agreement with Sacred Scripture and apostolic tradition [a geocentric revelation in Scripture] . For, the Holy Spirit was not promised to the successors of Peter that by His revelation they might disclose new doctrine, but that by His help they might guard sacredly the revelation transmitted through the apostles and the deposit of faith, and might forcefully set it out…’ --- Vatican I (1869-1870) (Denz. 1836.)

Now anyone calling themselves Catholic or thinking they are Catholic, had better sit up and acknowledge the greatest contradiction in the history of the Catholic Church, for in 1835 popes did allow heliocentric books to be published, read and believed by the flock, making a mockery of the Catholic Church's catechism of the Council of Trent. Trying to dismiss this rejection of the doctrine of geocentrism held by the Church since Christ founded it on the basis that the 1616 decree was not an infallible one is pathetic. There is a Catholic answer to this dilemma, but few want to know as they want to keep their solar system while thinking they are Catholic.

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RE: I Dont Have Enough Faith to be an Evolutionist - Skepticism of Evolution - by cassini - 06-27-2019, 12:56 PM

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