I Dont Have Enough Faith to be an Evolutionist - Skepticism of Evolution
(07-02-2019, 03:18 PM)cassini Wrote:
(07-02-2019, 02:13 PM)Filiolus Wrote: Cassini, is geocentrism central to the economy of salvation or to our understanding of who God is? If yes, why isn't it in the New Testament? If no, why do you use it as a gauge of one's orthodoxy?

What is the first dogma of the Catholic Church recorded in Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma: ‘God, our Creator and lord, can be known with certainty, by the natural light of reason from created things.’ (De fide.)

I'd note cassini, that you never answered the question.

It was a simple yes or no. Do you think that the confession of Geocentrism is as important for our salvation as understanding the Nature of God?

Are we to take what you posted as a yes? It seems like that what you suggest, but it's not clear that you are stating this.

(07-02-2019, 03:18 PM)cassini Wrote: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against the ungodliness and wickedness of those men who in wickedness hold back the truth of God, seeing that what may be known about God is manifest to them. For God has manifested it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen – His everlasting power also and divinity - being understood through the things that are made. And so they are without excuse, seeing that, although they knew God they did not glorify Him as God or give him thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds have been darkened. For while professing to be wise, they have become fools, and they have changed the glory of the incorruptible God for an image made like to corruptible man and to birds and four-footed beasts and creeping things.’ --- St Paul’s Letter to the Romans, (Ch.1:18-23)

Are you saying this applies to those who deny Geocentrism?

(07-02-2019, 03:18 PM)cassini Wrote: The importance of geocentrism was explained in 1616

(1) “That the sun is in the centre of the world and altogether immovable by local movement,” was unanimously declared to be “foolish, philosophically absurd, and formally heretical [denial of a revelation by God] inasmuch as it expressly contradicts the declarations of Holy Scripture in many passages, according to the proper meaning of the language used, and the sense in which they have been expounded and understood by [all] the Fathers and theologians.”

Again, you're not quoting original source material, but the Dread Reverend again, and I would note that the quote has been edited to add "all". That is not a minor edit.

And yet again, I will note that the original was not a decree or in any way Magisterial, but an assessors report. If you think this assessors report is infallible, then by the same logic and an even better argument must be the Argentine Bishops' heretical interpretation of Amoris Lætitia.

(07-02-2019, 03:18 PM)cassini Wrote: Now if physical geocentrism is not true, then, the pope teaches, the Scriptures, Old and New testaments contain errors or were interpreted wrong by all the Fathers and theologians.

Or that the Fathers were not speaking ex professo, or were not widely unanimous in speaking ex professo, and so when they spoke were explaining according to a natural comological understanding, which, seeing as in 1616 had not been demonstrated as flawed by any solid science, was to be held by St Augustine's principle of interpretation of Scriptures.

(07-02-2019, 03:18 PM)cassini Wrote: Now if found wrong once, or even interpreted wrongly, then how many other teachings of the Catholic Church based on the Scriptures, both Old and New testaments could also be wrong. It only takes ONE such error or wrong interpretation by all the Fathers and popes to prove the Church is not divinely guided in the Scriptures or when interpreting the Scriptures. That is what was at stake in the Galileo case.

That's a slippery slope fallacy, so : not really.

St Thomas Aquinas takes issue with St Augustine on several issues, especially when it comes to grace. One cannot go against the unanimous ex professo interpretation of the Fathers, but one can certainly look and re-examine if they are trying to teach by those words.

Of course if one were to doubt or question what is clearly taught by many of the Fathers which they clearly intend to teach as a matter of faith (ex professo), I agree, then if the interpretation is questioned then so is every other.

However, as David Palm points out : Melchior Incohffer, S.J. who was the arch-nemesis of Galileo, wrote firmly against Copernicanism and was deeply involved in Galileo's condemnation could write : "I have not found a single one of the Holy Fathers who has dealt with the motion of the earth clearly and positively, as the saying goes. But from some of them it is possible to deduce a few things that seem relevant here" (quotes in R. J. Blackwell, Behind the Scenes at Galileo’s Trial, p. 112.)

So if one of Galielo's contemporaries who was gunning for his condemnation and wedded to geocentrism could say that the none of Fathers deal clearly with the earth's motion as dogma, then it is very hard to hold that position and that the assessors' report is an accurate view of things.

(07-02-2019, 03:18 PM)cassini Wrote: God allowed Pope Paul V and Urban VIII to define it heresy to deny the geocentrism of Scripture.

Except, as has been shown above more than once now, they never did this. Your ipse dixits do not make it so.

(07-02-2019, 03:18 PM)cassini Wrote: Accepting heliocentrism in ignorance was material heresy.

So the Catholic Church has been supporting and promoting material heresy since 1820. Are you really saying that the Popes and theological experts aside from your Dread Reverend Roberts were so dense that they did not figure out that this was heretical? That an expert like Roberts was so accurate in his reporting, yet was ignored and so we've been groaning under material heresy taught by the Church for 200 years?
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RE: I Dont Have Enough Faith to be an Evolutionist - Skepticism of Evolution - by MagisterMusicae - 07-02-2019, 07:08 PM

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