I Dont Have Enough Faith to be an Evolutionist - Skepticism of Evolution
(07-03-2019, 03:04 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(07-03-2019, 01:58 PM)cassini Wrote: Maybe I can sum up my synthesis with this one argument.

Cassini, that is a fine synthesis. and it shows exactly how wrong you are and how you have failed now in nearly 20 pages to even engage the core of the arguments against you.

(07-03-2019, 01:58 PM)cassini Wrote: Here we have a Catholic Church in 1616 and 1633, holding the whole Catholic world to believe the Bible reveals geocentrism and like Galileo would have put him to death if he had admitted to this heresy.

That has not been proven, but you keep asserting it. In fact, in the case of 1616 you have been proven wrong again and again, but reason, logic, canon law and theology be damned because of your personal dogma.

There was no 1616 infallible decree. Yet you can write :

Quote:The 1616 decree condemned as heretical was to hold the Bible reveals a fixed sun, nothing else was heretical.

Again, there was no such decree, but you make your case for such a decree by a horrifically convoluted path.

In order to make an 1616 assessors theological report (which was never turned into a decree of the Holy Office) into a decree, you kick the matter offer to the Congregation of the Index which after that report issued a decree in which they forbids Copernican books. However, within that decree they neither mention nor cite the report, even though you claim that the report caused the decree (for which their is little evidence, and that would not change things anyway). Even if this were true, we would still need that Index decree to be possibly infallible and actually asserting that something be held by the faithful by Faith. To do this you assert that it was approved by the Pope because he was the head of the Holy Office and the Index was a part of this Congregation, but I showed that was not the case, and you have never been able to show were this decree was approved in forma specifica would would constitute the minimum conditions for infallibility. Even if we could show that, the decree textually does not meet the standards for declaring a dogma, because it is not clear what is being bound and who is bound and the full pontifical authority is being used. Even if we were to grant this, though, the best that could be argues is that this decree would declare infallible that Copernicanism was an error.

You have never engaged that series of arguments but assume the conclusion of this. You make the assertion, so it is yours to prove. You have not done that by your quote-mining of Roberts.

(07-03-2019, 01:58 PM)cassini Wrote: Then in 1820, this same Catholic Church allows/teaches that the Bible can be interpreted heliocentrically.

In other words, you stand with a Church that contradicted itself.

And that is exactly why we have said that you are not a Catholic. That statement is blasphemous and heretical if you actually believe it and it's not merely a rhetorical device. Given you earlier suggested that Protestants had preserved the Truth, it seems you do.

Here above we have Magister at his best. Nothing but rhetoric. You actually argue that the Galileo case of 1616 and 1633 did not happen. Are you joking? Are you taking the readers of Fisheaters as fools? You say 'it has not been proven.' What has not been proven? Galileo lied on oath and still got life imprisonment. Google in the Galileo case and you will get 25,500,000 different sites telling it exactly as I have told it.

In my post I recorded the documents that show the Church of 1820 fully accepted the infallibility of the '1616 papal decree.' Yet you simply dismiss this fact of history. Are you serious Magister, that is pathetic. Magister is a greater authority than the heliocentric senior officer of the holy Office in 1820. Its a bit like an atheist arguing, 'well nobody ever proved Christ rose from the dead.'

And then you accuse me of not being Catholic because I stated the Catholic Church contradicted itself. I studied the history of the Catholic Church in this matter. In 1616 the Church said biblical heliocentrism was formal heresy. In 1633 Pope Urban VIII found Galileo guilty of suspicion of heresy in the following manner:

 The Inquisition’s Sentence:
‘…  “that so pernicious a doctrine might be altogether taken away, and spread no further to the heavy detriment of Catholic truth, a decree emanated from the Sacred Congregation of the Index in which books that treat of doctrine of the kind were prohibited, and that doctrine was declared false, and altogether contrary to the sacred and divine Scripture.... Understanding that, through the publication of a work at Florence entitled Dialogo di Galileo Galilei delle due massime Sisteme del Mundo Ptolemaico e Copernicano, the false opinion of the motion of the Earth and the stability of the sun was gaining ground, it had examined the book, and had found it to be a manifest infringement of the injunction laid on you, since you in the same book have defended an opinion already condemned, and declared to your face to be so, in that you have tried in the said book, by various devices, to persuade yourself that you leave the matter undetermined, and the opinion expressed as probable; the which, however, is a most grave error, since an opinion can in no manner be probable which has been declared, and defined to be, contrary to the divine Scripture.” 
“Invoking, then, the most holy Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and that of His most glorious Mother Mary ever Virgin, by this our definitive sentence we say, pronounce, judge, and declare, that you, the said Galileo, on account of these things proved against you by documentary evidence, and which have been confessed by you as aforesaid, have rendered yourself to this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy, that is, of having believed and held a doctrine which is false and contrary to the sacred and divine Scriptures -to wit, that the sun is in the centre of the world, and that it does not move from east to west, and that the Earth moves, and is not the centre of the universe; and that an opinion can be held and defended as probable after it has been declared and defined to be contrary to Holy Scripture. And consequently that you have incurred all the censures and penalties decreed and promulgated by the sacred canons and other constitutions, general and particular, against delinquents of this class." 

Now I did not make that up, that is from the Inquisition's records. but Magister says it is all bunkum, never proven infallible or whatever. 'Why didn't you tell them to go jump in the river Galileo, it was never proven!'

But in 1820, in an obvious non-infallible way, by the way, the Catholic Church managed to allow heliocentric books to be printed and believed. Now in HISTORY'S BOOK that is a Church contradicting itself. It is history and if believing history makes one not a Catholic in Magister's eyes, then God did not rise from the dead.

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RE: I Dont Have Enough Faith to be an Evolutionist - Skepticism of Evolution - by cassini - 07-04-2019, 06:17 AM

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