I Dont Have Enough Faith to be an Evolutionist - Skepticism of Evolution
(09-15-2019, 01:45 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(09-14-2019, 11:19 AM)Augustinian Wrote: It's a result of a change in nature, which is exactly what sin does. Thorns and brambles were not something present in Paradise, but once Adam and Eve fell, then they were introduced through a corruption of the nature of things due to sin.

In Aristotelian-Thomistic philosophy a Nature is also an Essence or Formal Cause. It is what make a thing to be what it is. It is that principle from which flow actions proper to that nature (Agere sequitur esse). This corresponds to the universal concept which does not exist really in itself, but exists really in each thing which possess said nature. This makes those things to be able to be placed into species and genera and it makes it possible for us to know them deeply in their essence. Thus I see a tree and because all trees have the nature of tree, I know something about them. I see a man and I know he is a man just like any other being which has this nature. I see a dog and I can identify him as a dog.

The only alternative to asserting that these universals is Nominalism. That there are no universals only "names" which we arbitrarily give to things.

The problem with asserting that by sin that the nature of man was changed is to assert that he is no longer a man. Luther, too asserted this, and it is heretical.

Further, to change the nature of a thing is not something that even God does, and to assert that even God would change the nature of a thing would undermine his Wisdom and Providence.

If Adam had a different nature before and after sin, then he was not a man, and became a man by sin, or he was a man and by sin became something totally different.

The Catholic explanation is that sin wounded human nature. That by sin man's nature does not operate well. Sin introduced a disorder or indisposition to man's nature, but did not fundamentally change that nature.

The even further problem is that if man's nature changed by sin, then either Our Lord is sinless and therefore not man, or he too is a sinner, and truly man. Either is a heresy.

Sin does not corrupt nature (again a heresy). It wounds our nature, making it indisposed to operate well. Grace, like medicine, help it to function properly.

Thorns and brambles existed outside of paradise, else then Creation did not end with day six.

And how could the wounding of one nature cause the change in the nature of other things? That would again, suggest that sin has more power than God, who cannot do this.

The principle which theologians like Fr Garrigou-Lagrange would assert is that "What is natural to man is neither acquired nor forfeited by sin".

(09-14-2019, 11:19 AM)Augustinian Wrote: The Fall had a fundamental effect on not just the spiritual state of man, but the essences of all created things as corruption and death entered the world through Adam.

Scripture only suggests that human death entered the world because of sin. There is no reason to assert that animal and plant death did not precede Original Sin. In fact, there is good reason to think such death did.

Death is natural for material creatures, and again, by the extension of the same principle above, what is natural is not added or removed by sin. It is natural because the tendency of material things which are composed of parts is to break into parts, to wear out. Along said lines, we can see that the death of certain creature is necessary for the life of others.

How did lions eat? They are simply incapable of eating anything but other animals. They lack essential amino acids and nutrients which cannot be had except through eating the flesh of other animals. So if there were no animal death before sin, there would no lions, unless we posit miracles, which again, undermines God's Providence and Wisdom. This would be to assert that sin caused a perfection in an animal, which is absurd.

What about bacteria and scavengers. These feed on dead things, some only on animal flesh.

In order to assert that animal and plant death only began with the Fall, is to assert that sin destroyed the entire universal order, which again, suggests that sin undermines God's power, Providence and Wisdom, which is not only heretical but blasphemous.

*** Edited to add : To be clear Augustine, I'm not saying that you're blaspheming or saying heretical things, but trying to show the problems with the assertion you make if taken to their logical conclusions. ***

Yes, and I made an error in my distinctions here, which I apologize for. What I should have emphasized is that sin does not change the essence itself of a thing, which as you noted is erroneous, but that sin changes the accidental nature of that thing so that it is defective. And this idea is rooted in the notion of the integral good, where that all things God creates are wholly good. To have any sort of defect is to introduce a lack of good in some aspect of that thing, which would be an accidental defect of its nature rather than, as I erroneously held, a change of the integral nature of the thing itself.

Now, the point I was trying to make with the Fall is that there is this accidental change in the nature of creatures due to sin, not due to the actions of God, in which all of His actions are perfect per the integral good. Now, the issue arises with theistic evolution, and especially that of neo-Thomists who accept this position, is that of a rejection of this integral good. To say that God utilizes evolution in any such way is to say that God purposely created things to have defects and that He created, or introduced, death into the world.

Now, the way that things outside of the good are introduced into the world, such as thorns and brambles or the vicious carnivorous appetites of animals, are through secondary causation. The Fall was essentially a result of secondary causation, keeping in mind the integral good. Therefore, any changes we see through defects in creation, such as the fallen state of man from Adam or corruption and mutation in species, are due to these secondary causes.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

"In my bed by night I sought him whom my soul loveth: I sought him, and found him not. I will rise, and will go about the city: in the streets and the broad ways I will seek him whom my soul loveth: I sought him, and I found him not.The watchmen who keep the city, found me: Have you seen him, whom my soul loveth? When I had a little passed by them, I found him whom my soul loveth: I held him: and I will not let him go, till I bring him into my mother’s house, and into the chamber of her that bore me." - Cant. 3:1-4
[-] The following 1 user Likes Augustinian's post:
  • Some Guy

Messages In This Thread
RE: I Dont Have Enough Faith to be an Evolutionist - Skepticism of Evolution - by Augustinian - 09-15-2019, 12:52 PM

Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)