No more Limbo??
#31
(07-30-2018, 01:08 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(07-30-2018, 12:52 AM)Melkite Wrote: In the Byzantine liturgies, when Abraham's bosom is mentioned, we're referring to heaven.

So the unbaptised go to heaven?

The only time I'm familiar with it being used is in the memorials after death,  but it prays for the soul to go to the bosom of Abraham, where there is no pain, no grief, no sighing, and to enter into the mansions of the just.  Unbaptized children aren't specifically mentioned.
I have resigned myself to the reality that I shall have no peace or joy should I continue to exist for eternity.  The question of deism or Christianity no longer matters.  I hope that Christianity is a farce, and that when I die, my consciousness will cease to exist.  In the meantime, I ask the Theotokos to be at my side at my judgement and ask her to intercede to, as I beg, Christ to have mercy on me and to allow me to cease to exist when I die.
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#32
(07-30-2018, 01:34 AM)Melkite Wrote:
(07-30-2018, 01:08 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(07-30-2018, 12:52 AM)Melkite Wrote: In the Byzantine liturgies, when Abraham's bosom is mentioned, we're referring to heaven.

So the unbaptised go to heaven?

The only time I'm familiar with it being used is in the memorials after death,  but it prays for the soul to go to the bosom of Abraham, where there is no pain, no grief, no sighing, and to enter into the mansions of the just.  Unbaptized children aren't specifically mentioned.

As MM points out, the only reference to it in the Gospel is in relation to an unbaptised soul, before Christ opened heaven by His Sacrifice on the Cross. You know, I'm familiar with the prayer you mean from the Pankhida, but it never occured to me that it meant literally the Bosom of Abraham mentioned in the Gospel, because that makes no sense in light of the Gospel.
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#33
(07-29-2018, 11:50 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(07-29-2018, 11:35 PM)Dominicus Wrote: The Gospels do mention limbo. It's referred to as "Abrahams Bosom" and "Sheol", prior to Christ's coming all righteous people went there. The wicked went to the Hell of the Damned or Gehenna.

That is the Limbo of the Just or Limbo of the Fathers, limbus patrum, which was emptied at Christ's descent into hell. We're not talking about it. Limbus puerorum, the Limbo of Infants, may be in the same place, but it has nothing to do with Limbus patrum.

I was merely pointing out that the gospels do mention limbo, which is what Melkite denied. I did not make the distinction between limbus patrum and limbs puerorum because I was responding directly to Melkites assertion that the Gospels make no mention of Limbo.

But as I said, the argument is not that whether or not a place called limbo exists but rather whether unbaptized innocents go there.
Surréxit Dóminus vere, Alleluia!
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#34
(07-30-2018, 02:01 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(07-30-2018, 01:34 AM)Melkite Wrote:
(07-30-2018, 01:08 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(07-30-2018, 12:52 AM)Melkite Wrote: In the Byzantine liturgies, when Abraham's bosom is mentioned, we're referring to heaven.

So the unbaptised go to heaven?

The only time I'm familiar with it being used is in the memorials after death,  but it prays for the soul to go to the bosom of Abraham, where there is no pain, no grief, no sighing, and to enter into the mansions of the just.  Unbaptized children aren't specifically mentioned.

As MM points out, the only reference to it in the Gospel is in relation to an unbaptised soul, before Christ opened heaven by His Sacrifice on the Cross. You know, I'm familiar with the prayer you mean from the Pankhida, but it never occured to me that it meant literally the Bosom of Abraham mentioned in the Gospel, because that makes no sense in light of the Gospel.

The Bosom of Abraham or Sheol was the place where the Just would go to wait for the coming of the Redeemer. It was a type (a figure or shadow) for Heaven. 

Thus, liturgically, after the coming of the Redeemer it make sense that one could refer to the "Bosom of Abraham" meaning heaven, since Heaven is the reward for those who would have gone to this place. It is like calling Christ by his type, Adam or Melchizedek, by saying Christ is a "second Adam" or he is a priest "according to the order of Melchizedek."

However, when we are limiting ourselves to the Evangelical meaning, we can mean only the Limbo of the Father, or Limbus Patrum, and not Heaven.
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#35
(07-30-2018, 02:01 AM)jovan66102 Wrote: You know, I'm familiar with the prayer you mean from the Pankhida, but it never occured to me that it meant literally the Bosom of Abraham mentioned in the Gospel, because that makes no sense in light of the Gospel.

It's used in the Latin liturgy, too:

R. Subvenite, Sancti Dei, occurrite, Angeli Domini: Suscipientes animam ejus, offerentes eam in conspectu Altissimi.
V. Suscipiat te Christus qui vocavit te, et in sinum Abrahae Angeli deducant te.
R. Suscipientes animam ejus, offerentes eam in conspectu Altissimi.
V. Requiem aeternam dona ei, Domine: et lux perpetua luceat ei.
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#36
Abrahams Bosom refers to heaven by analogy but at the time before Christ's resurrection it certainly referred to a part of Sheol, the underworld where all souls went. After Christ's death the rightous were brought to heaven.

Otherwise where and why did Christ go in the Harrowing of Hell? He certainly didn't descend to the He'll of the Damned.
Surréxit Dóminus vere, Alleluia!
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#37
(07-30-2018, 12:13 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(07-29-2018, 09:24 PM)Melkite Wrote: This is unsettling to me, that for hundreds of years, no one thought it appalling or difficult to accept (at least, so it seems from what you've quoted above), that infants who die without baptism, who could have had no opportunity to do anything wrong, could be punished for merely being created in an unchosen state.  The above quotations would have us believe that theologians of the middle ages and later were almost quaking in their boots to give more than speculative credence to the mercy of Christ over such children but didn't see any problem with the lack of mercy by sending them to hell. 

Note that I said that it must be rejects as having a theological foundation, not that it must be rejected entirely.

It is important to note the the study of Theology concerns God and what is related to God as known through the use of human reason on revelation. Theology can only speak accurately about what is revealed or tied to revelation and can be known by revelation. No where in Scripture or other sources of revelation do we have any example where after the institution of the Sacrament of Baptism any unbaptized child was saved. Thus theology cannot answer this question except to say there is no theological foundation to the salvation of unbaptized children.

Further, even if God were to do this is certain cases, it would be unwise for him to reveal it, seeing as a consequence is that it would remove the motive for baptizing such children.

It is certainly not a condemned opinion that God may provide for the salvation of unbaptized children, but neither does it enjoy the support of the Church.

(07-29-2018, 09:24 PM)Melkite Wrote: I'm also curious why nothing remotely explicit mentions limbo in the Gospels or the rest of the new testament (not that it necessarily needs to be mentioned there in order for it to be true).  Both the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches have no problem believing that God can be merciful on these children and allow them into heaven.  Are they both guilty of historic revision on this problem?

The problem with Eastern theology, especially Orthodox, is that it is not usually systematic, and the mystical aspects of certain things are mixed in with doctrinal aspects of others. There also is a highly emotion element to their theology and worship which is going to have its effect.

It is de fide that every soul in Heaven is in the State of Grace. Sanctifying Grace is a sine qua non condition. If unbaptized children are saved they must receive this somehow, but we know of no means except Baptism.

That makes a lot of sense.
I have resigned myself to the reality that I shall have no peace or joy should I continue to exist for eternity.  The question of deism or Christianity no longer matters.  I hope that Christianity is a farce, and that when I die, my consciousness will cease to exist.  In the meantime, I ask the Theotokos to be at my side at my judgement and ask her to intercede to, as I beg, Christ to have mercy on me and to allow me to cease to exist when I die.
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#38
(07-30-2018, 02:18 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: The Bosom of Abraham or Sheol was the place where the Just would go to wait for the coming of the Redeemer. It was a type (a figure or shadow) for Heaven. 

Thus, liturgically, after the coming of the Redeemer it make sense that one could refer to the "Bosom of Abraham" meaning heaven, since Heaven is the reward for those who would have gone to this place. It is like calling Christ by his type, Adam or Melchizedek, by saying Christ is a "second Adam" or he is a priest "according to the order of Melchizedek."

However, when we are limiting ourselves to the Evangelical meaning, we can mean only the Limbo of the Father, or Limbus Patrum, and not Heaven.

That also makes a lot of sense.  It never occurred to me before to look at the bosom of Abraham as not only being figurative, but also as literally right in the presence of Abraham.  If that's the case, it would have to be heaven now, and also couldn't have been heaven at the time Christ was on earth.
I have resigned myself to the reality that I shall have no peace or joy should I continue to exist for eternity.  The question of deism or Christianity no longer matters.  I hope that Christianity is a farce, and that when I die, my consciousness will cease to exist.  In the meantime, I ask the Theotokos to be at my side at my judgement and ask her to intercede to, as I beg, Christ to have mercy on me and to allow me to cease to exist when I die.
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#39
(07-29-2018, 09:24 PM)Melkite Wrote: This is unsettling to me, that for hundreds of years, no one thought it appalling or difficult to accept (at least, so it seems from what you've quoted above), that infants who die without baptism, who could have had no opportunity to do anything wrong, could be punished for merely being created in an unchosen state.  The above quotations would have us believe that theologians of the middle ages and later were almost quaking in their boots to give more than speculative credence to the mercy of Christ over such children but didn't see any problem with the lack of mercy by sending them to hell. 

I know this doesn't give answer to your bigger questions Melkite but I thought you might like to know that this is not the case. St. Augustine himself anguished over his teaching concerning infants, in Letter 166 he writes to St. Jerome begging him to tell him how the idea that unbaptized infants are punished lines up with the justice of God.

"Teach me, I beg of you, what I am to teach ... how can it be just of the creator to bind them by another's sin when they are joined to mortal bodies descended of him?"

"When I come to the question of the sufferings of infants, believe me, I am greatly upset, and I find no ready answer."

"Tell me what to answer about children if there are no sins to be punished in them by such sufferings"

Augustine was not an unfeeling man who delighted in this teaching, he really struggled with it, and by this letter (there's alot more of course) even seemed appalled by it.
"If your heart comes to feel a natural hatred for sin, it has defeated the causes of sin and freed itself from them. Keep hell’s torments in mind; but know that your Helper is at hand. Do nothing that will grieve Him, but say to Him with tears: ‘Be merciful and deliver me, O Lord, for without Thy help I cannot escape from the hands of my enemies.’ Be attentive to your heart, and He will guard you from all evil."

- St. Isaias the Solitary

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and stillness give the correct law to all under heaven."

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#40
(07-30-2018, 11:32 AM)Florus Wrote: I know this doesn't give answer to your bigger questions Melkite but I thought you might like to know that this is not the case. St. Augustine himself anguished over his teaching concerning infants, in Letter 166 he writes to St. Jerome begging him to tell him how the idea that unbaptized infants are punished lines up with the justice of God.

"Teach me, I beg of you, what I am to teach ... how can it be just of the creator to bind them by another's sin when they are joined to mortal bodies descended of him?"

"When I come to the question of the sufferings of infants, believe me, I am greatly upset, and I find no ready answer."

"Tell me what to answer about children if there are no sins to be punished in them by such sufferings"

Augustine was not an unfeeling man who delighted in this teaching, he really struggled with it, and by this letter (there's alot more of course) even seemed appalled by it.


It's really good to know that.  Thank you for sharing it.
I have resigned myself to the reality that I shall have no peace or joy should I continue to exist for eternity.  The question of deism or Christianity no longer matters.  I hope that Christianity is a farce, and that when I die, my consciousness will cease to exist.  In the meantime, I ask the Theotokos to be at my side at my judgement and ask her to intercede to, as I beg, Christ to have mercy on me and to allow me to cease to exist when I die.
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