No more Limbo??
#51
(07-31-2018, 11:49 AM)PorphyriosK Wrote:
Quote:The conclusion and reminder I would make is that it is clear that no one before modern times ever gave any kind of founded hope that unbaptized infants are saved. This is a novel concept which must be rejected (at least as theological-founded). There is absolutely no Catholic theological foundation for such wishful thinking, and certainly, if God did desire to send unbaptized children to heaven He would not reveal this to us, lest we fail to take seriously the necessity of Baptism. 

Why do we have the feast of the Holy Innocents?  Are the Holy Innocents not saved?

The Holy innocents were martyred.
Surréxit Dóminus vere, Alleluia!
Reply
#52
(07-31-2018, 11:49 AM)PorphyriosK Wrote: Why do we have the feast of the Holy Innocents?  Are the Holy Innocents not saved?

They don't even enter into the question being debated. They were martyred prior to the Sacrifice of Christ and before the institution of Baptism. They went to the Limbo of the Just along with Adam, the Holy Machabees (whose Feast Day is tomorrow), and other just men and women. They were freed during the Harrowing of Hell, and taken by Christ to the newly opened Heaven.


The Roman Martyrology Wrote:August 1st anno Domini 2018 The 19th Day of the Moon 


Commemorated the dedication of the Church of St. Peter-in-Chains, upon the Esquiline Mount at Rome. 
Upon the same day, were born into the better life: 
At Antioch, the seven holy Maccabee brethren and their mother, who suffered under King Antiochus Epiphanes. Their relics have been brought to Rome and buried in the aforesaid Church of St. Peter-in-Chains. 
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
  “Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'


[-] The following 1 user Likes jovan66102's post:
  • Dominicus
Reply
#53
(07-31-2018, 01:49 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote: It seems pretty clear to me in Scripture and Tradition that everyone needs grace to be saved--therefore, dying without grace (e.g. in original sin) means one is not saved.  The Pelagians denied this and were condemned by the Church well before the medieval period.  No one can be saved apart from grace.  This is a pretty foundational Christian dogma which I doubt you deny.

As for your second statement, the details of each state of the afterlife are of course very much speculative.  But again, we know grace is necessary for salvation and we know we are not born in the state of grace and we know we can lose it through sin.  These are handed down in Scripture and Tradition.

That's true, but it's being treated like a formula that God is bound to.  A person needs grace to go to heaven, and one does not have grace if they are in original sin.  Therefore, if they die, God can by no means step in and apply that grace in ways that are completely unknown to us unless he reveals them.  That's kind of what the scholastic argument boils down to.

I agree with MagisterMusicae's explanation that one can't say that there is a theological foundation for hope in this.  But what we can say is that there is a big, gaping hole of "We don't know," and that much of this falls into that.  We don't know what happens to a person's soul in the moments between apparent loss of consciousness, actual loss of ability to control the body, and separation of the soul from the body.  No where in scripture does it say that God can save those who haven't been baptized but will refuse to in every instance.  Or that he'll even refuse to in some instances.  Based on revelation, it is just as possible that God will save every last soul born on this earth in those few moments as it is that he will let all who die in original sin alone go to hell.  We just don't know.

What bothers me about this is that we are allowed to hope that God makes a way possible that we can never know about in this life, but so many seem determined to refuse to hope for it.  I cannot comprehend how a person who has truly experienced the love and mercy of Christ in their own lives can take such a sterile, academic position on this (not saying you are, just those who do in general).
I have resigned myself to the reality that I shall have no peace or joy should I continue to exist for eternity.  The question of deism or Christianity no longer matters.  I hope that Christianity is a farce, and that when I die, my consciousness will cease to exist.  In the meantime, I ask the Theotokos to be at my side at my judgement and ask her to intercede to, as I beg, Christ to have mercy on me and to allow me to cease to exist when I die.
Reply
#54
(07-31-2018, 02:26 PM)Dominicus Wrote: The Holy innocents were martyred.

That's a stretch.  None of them chose to die for Christ.  Probably none of them were even aware of Christ's existence, much less whom he is.

It's like saying a Muslim who walks in front of a truck, completely unknowing that the driver of the truck was on the way to murder someone, died and, because of his death by truck, the driver's intended victim left his home in time to not be there when his prospective murderer arrived.  Was the Muslim a martyr in this case?
I have resigned myself to the reality that I shall have no peace or joy should I continue to exist for eternity.  The question of deism or Christianity no longer matters.  I hope that Christianity is a farce, and that when I die, my consciousness will cease to exist.  In the meantime, I ask the Theotokos to be at my side at my judgement and ask her to intercede to, as I beg, Christ to have mercy on me and to allow me to cease to exist when I die.
Reply
#55
(07-31-2018, 02:52 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(07-31-2018, 11:49 AM)PorphyriosK Wrote: Why do we have the feast of the Holy Innocents?  Are the Holy Innocents not saved?

They don't even enter into the question being debated. They were martyred prior to the Sacrifice of Christ and before the institution of Baptism. They went to the Limbo of the Just along with Adam, the Holy Machabees (whose Feast Day is tomorrow), and other just men and women. They were freed during the Harrowing of Hell, and taken by Christ to the newly opened Heaven.

Was the Old law greater in mercy than the new?  Such a prospect should reek of blasphemy to any Christian.
I have resigned myself to the reality that I shall have no peace or joy should I continue to exist for eternity.  The question of deism or Christianity no longer matters.  I hope that Christianity is a farce, and that when I die, my consciousness will cease to exist.  In the meantime, I ask the Theotokos to be at my side at my judgement and ask her to intercede to, as I beg, Christ to have mercy on me and to allow me to cease to exist when I die.
Reply
#56
(07-31-2018, 04:55 PM)Melkite Wrote: Was the Old law greater in mercy than the new?  Such a prospect should reek of blasphemy to any Christian.

Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh Huh !!!
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
  “Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'


Reply
#57
(07-31-2018, 04:55 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(07-31-2018, 02:52 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(07-31-2018, 11:49 AM)PorphyriosK Wrote: Why do we have the feast of the Holy Innocents?  Are the Holy Innocents not saved?

They don't even enter into the question being debated. They were martyred prior to the Sacrifice of Christ and before the institution of Baptism. They went to the Limbo of the Just along with Adam, the Holy Machabees (whose Feast Day is tomorrow), and other just men and women. They were freed during the Harrowing of Hell, and taken by Christ to the newly opened Heaven.

Was the Old law greater in mercy than the new?  Such a prospect should reek of blasphemy to any Christian.

Before Christ instituted Baptism there was no Baptism, thus everyone was unbaptized.

The Limbo of Children is a New Testament concept which does not apply to the Old Testament. There were no rites in the Old Testament that per se removed Original Sin.

So all the just (those without Original Sin and whose Actual Sins were forgiven) whether infants or adults went to the Limbo of the Father, and were brought to Heaven after the Ascension.

In fact there is an even more uncertain question with regard to the fate of infants in the Old Testament, since the the Old Testament "sacraments" were not per se causes of grace.
[-] The following 1 user Likes MagisterMusicae's post:
  • jovan66102
Reply
#58
(07-31-2018, 08:15 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: Before Christ instituted Baptism there was no Baptism, thus everyone was unbaptized.

The Limbo of Children is a New Testament concept which does not apply to the Old Testament. There were no rites in the Old Testament that per se removed Original Sin.

So all the just (those without Original Sin and whose Actual Sins were forgiven) whether infants or adults went to the Limbo of the Father, and were brought to Heaven after the Ascension.

In fact there is an even more uncertain question with regard to the fate of infants in the Old Testament, since the the Old Testament "sacraments" were not per se causes of grace.

What I mean is that, as you mention, there were no sacraments that could be causes of grace at the time that the infants were killed.  So they went to the Limbo of the Fathers.  I don't remember from the Old Testament, but was it ever hinted at in it that Christ would go there and redeem the souls there, or was that not revealed to Israel?

However, with Limbo of the children, even though those there go there because they died in somewhat the same situation, where there were no sacraments available to them to give them grace, it is then impossible that there is any redemption for them from their own limbo (theologically unfounded hypotheses notwithstanding)?

If this is the case, then the Old Law ends up being better for sinners than the New, since in the Old law, if you died in original sin, you went somewhere where Christ could still redeem you.  But under the New Law, if you die in original sin, you are hopelessly separated from communion with God, even though you may not experience any physical pain.  Before Christ's resurrection, there was a sort of economia, but after it, there is only acriveia.  Christ's resurrection actually makes the situation for sinners worse than before, but such a suggestion should be considered blasphemous, besides logically implausible.  How could Christ, who came to show mercy on sinners, make a situation for us that is less so?
I have resigned myself to the reality that I shall have no peace or joy should I continue to exist for eternity.  The question of deism or Christianity no longer matters.  I hope that Christianity is a farce, and that when I die, my consciousness will cease to exist.  In the meantime, I ask the Theotokos to be at my side at my judgement and ask her to intercede to, as I beg, Christ to have mercy on me and to allow me to cease to exist when I die.
Reply
#59
(07-31-2018, 08:59 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(07-31-2018, 08:15 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: Before Christ instituted Baptism there was no Baptism, thus everyone was unbaptized.

The Limbo of Children is a New Testament concept which does not apply to the Old Testament. There were no rites in the Old Testament that per se removed Original Sin.

So all the just (those without Original Sin and whose Actual Sins were forgiven) whether infants or adults went to the Limbo of the Father, and were brought to Heaven after the Ascension.

In fact there is an even more uncertain question with regard to the fate of infants in the Old Testament, since the the Old Testament "sacraments" were not per se causes of grace.

What I mean is that, as you mention, there were no sacraments that could be causes of grace at the time that the infants were killed.  So they went to the Limbo of the Fathers.  I don't remember from the Old Testament, but was it ever hinted at in it that Christ would go there and redeem the souls there, or was that not revealed to Israel?

However, with Limbo of the children, even though those there go there because they died in somewhat the same situation, where there were no sacraments available to them to give them grace, it is then impossible that there is any redemption for them from their own limbo (theologically unfounded hypotheses notwithstanding)?

If this is the case, then the Old Law ends up being better for sinners than the New, since in the Old law, if you died in original sin, you went somewhere where Christ could still redeem you.  But under the New Law, if you die in original sin, you are hopelessly separated from communion with God, even though you may not experience any physical pain.  Before Christ's resurrection, there was a sort of economia, but after it, there is only acriveia.  Christ's resurrection actually makes the situation for sinners worse than before, but such a suggestion should be considered blasphemous, besides logically implausible.  How could Christ, who came to show mercy on sinners, make a situation for us that is less so?


The difficulty was not that there were no sacraments that could be causes of grace, but that the rites did not cause grace ex opere operato, that is, by the very sacrament action itself. There were means of grace, but they were not as certain as the Sacraments of the New Law.

What God granted was was greater certainty that by certain rites, salvation was more assured, and even in the case of a baptized infant, guaranteed.

Under both Old and New Law, death in the state of Original Sin, and without Sanctifying Grace causes the eternal separation from the Beatific Vision, but since this is owed to no one, it is only a punishment if it was lost by one's own fault. It is the fault that makes this a pain and suffering.

The benefit in the New Testament is we have a certain means to ensure infants of Sanctifying Grace. In the Old Testament there was never any certainty.

If infants were saved in the Old Testament, it was because God granted them the remission of Original Sin and infusion of Sanctifying Grace. If they did not have these, then they were not saved.
[-] The following 1 user Likes MagisterMusicae's post:
  • jovan66102
Reply
#60
(07-31-2018, 09:15 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: The difficulty was not that there were no sacraments that could be causes of grace, but that the rites did not cause grace ex opere operato, that is, by the very sacrament action itself. There were means of grace, but they were not as certain as the Sacraments of the New Law.

What God granted was was greater certainty that by certain rites, salvation was more assured, and even in the case of a baptized infant, guaranteed.

Under both Old and New Law, death in the state of Original Sin, and without Sanctifying Grace causes the eternal separation from the Beatific Vision, but since this is owed to no one, it is only a punishment if it was lost by one's own fault. It is the fault that makes this a pain and suffering.

The benefit in the New Testament is we have a certain means to ensure infants of Sanctifying Grace. In the Old Testament there was never any certainty.

If infants were saved in the Old Testament, it was because God granted them the remission of Original Sin and infusion of Sanctifying Grace. If they did not have these, then they were not saved.

Perhaps this would be better addressed in a new thread, then, but would it be unjust for God to deny granting sanctifying grace to someone who truly repented for the evil they have done, if they were as contrite as they were able?  By what you're saying, it seems like true contrition was the only real means possible for a person to receive sanctifying grace before Christ, though not necessarily a guaranteed means.  Could or would God have resisted a truly contrite heart at that time?  If not, even with access to the sure means of grace provided by the sacraments, wouldn't grace via contrition alone, at least in some sense, be a better way of sanctification?
I have resigned myself to the reality that I shall have no peace or joy should I continue to exist for eternity.  The question of deism or Christianity no longer matters.  I hope that Christianity is a farce, and that when I die, my consciousness will cease to exist.  In the meantime, I ask the Theotokos to be at my side at my judgement and ask her to intercede to, as I beg, Christ to have mercy on me and to allow me to cease to exist when I die.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)