"Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" explained
#11
Prior to Christ founding the Church, the Church did not exist. The old testament saints were never members in Christ's Church.

Protestants are made members in Christ's Church via baptism but separate themselves from communion by heresy.

Baptism by desire and blood produce the effects of baptism without actually making one a member of the Church.

Eeveryone who is saved in the new covenant is saved through the Church but not necessarily in the Church.
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#12
(08-01-2018, 04:18 PM)ServusDei Wrote:
MagisterMusicae Wrote:That's not the Catholic teaching, or at least for someone who calls himself a θεολόγος is woefully absent the necessary distinctions.

So the Church would infallibly endorse a fallible doctrine? The way I see it is that everyone who is saved has entered into the Church in some way - remember, there are the baptisms of blood and of desire.

Sacramental Baptism makes one a member of the Church. That Baptismal Character is the mark of membership in the Church Militant.

The other "baptisms" may have the effect to give to a soul Sanctifying Grace, but it does not make such persons members of the Church Militant. It makes them members of the Communion of Saints (just as anyone in the State of Grace is), and if they die members of the Church Triumpant (which is extensively the same as those who have died and are members of the Communion of Saints).

This is why St. Robert Bellarmine used the analogy of a soul and body. Those who are visibly part of the Church are part of the body. Those who were not visibly members of the Church (e.g. the unbaptized Just, and heretics and schismatics who are not culpable for their error or separation) are attached to the Church invisibly, thus the analogy of the soul. The attachment is like holding onto the Barque of Peter, which saves them, because they are holding onto it, not because they are inside of it.

In short, they are saved by the Church, but not as members of the Church (by which when speaking of the visible Church we mean the Church Militant).
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#13
(08-01-2018, 04:43 PM)ServusDei Wrote: Christ did say that nobody could get to the Father except through Him, and He founded the Church, is present in the Church, and guides the Church, His bride.

He is also the source of all grace and merit. 

Notice He did not say, "no one comes to the Father and Me except in the Church."

Please understand, I am not saying that this means that everyone is saved, rather that we cannot be so categorical, either falling into the errors of the followers of Fr Feeney, nor into Universal Salvation. Both are wrong.

My objection to you here is not because you seem to push one of these errors, but because by lack of proper distinction, you risk either falling into one or the other or you risk error as regards Ecclesiology, perhaps the same "invisible Church of Charity" error of Cardinal Journet.
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#14
Dominicus Wrote:Prior to Christ founding the Church, the Church did not exist. The old testament saints were never members in Christ's Church.

I disagree. When He founded the Church, He founded a universal Church for all ages.

Dominicus Wrote:Baptism by desire and blood produce the effects of baptism without actually making one a member of the Church.

No. One becomes a member of the Church through either a baptism of desire or that of blood.

Dominicus Wrote:Everyone who is saved in the new covenant is saved through the Church but not necessarily in the Church.

Everyone who is saved throughought the ages was part of God's Church during that period. During the Mosaic times, Jewism was His Church. When He came, He renewed it for all eternity in making the Catholic Church which form thenceforth became the only way to salvation.

Now, I will quote Pope Pius IX's encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore
Pius Wrote:Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching.


and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, § 1281:

Quote:Qui mortem propter fidem patiuntur, catechumeni et omnes homines qui, sub gratiae impulsu, quin Ecclesiam cognoscant, Deum sincere quaerunt et Eius voluntatem implere conantur, salvari possunt, etiamsi Baptismum non receperint.

(Translation:
Those who die for the faith are catechumens, and all those who, under the inspiration of grace, without knowing of the Church of God sincerely seek to fulfill His will try to escape, even if they have not been baptized.
)

This shows us that they are indeed catechumens, and members of the Church.
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Mon arme au roi,
Mon Coeur a la dame,
Mon honneur a moi!
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#15
(08-01-2018, 08:33 PM)ServusDei Wrote: During the Mosaic times, Jewism ...

"Jewism," Ο Θεολόγος ?

Methinks your vocabulary undermines your title ...

"Jewism" would be the worship of the Jewish race. Judaism is the religion of a certain group of people, namely the Jews.

(08-01-2018, 08:33 PM)ServusDei Wrote: Now, I will quote Pope Pius IX's encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore
Pius Wrote:Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching.

and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, § 1281:

Quote:Qui mortem propter fidem patiuntur, catechumeni et omnes homines qui, sub gratiae impulsu, quin Ecclesiam cognoscant, Deum sincere quaerunt et Eius voluntatem implere conantur, salvari possunt, etiamsi Baptismum non receperint.

(Translation:
Those who die for the faith are catechumens, and all those who, under the inspiration of grace, without knowing of the Church of God sincerely seek to fulfill His will try to escape, even if they have not been baptized.)

This shows us that they are indeed catechumens, and members of the Church.

Except ... no.

The first problem is trying to rely on the CCC as being orthodox. There are some serious issues with it.

Secondly, the CCC is merely defining who is a "catechumen". It says nothing of their membership in the Church.

Thirdly, yes, living in error and alienated from the Catholic Faith is a problem and precludes salvation. But, again, Pius XI here says nothing of those who are not alienated from the Faith, nor living in error being members of the Church. Once can certainly have the Faith and be in the State of Grace by Perfect Contrition and Charity, as happens in "Baptism" of Desire, but that does not make one a member of the Church.

If membership in the Church does not require Sacramental Baptism, then why do we insist on it? What's the point, if they are already members of the Church?
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#16
MagisterMusicae Wrote:Secondly, the CCC is merely defining who is a "catechumen". It says nothing of their membership in the Church.

Catechumens are part of the Church.

MagisterMusicae Wrote:Thirdly, yes, living in error and alienated from the Catholic Faith is a problem and precludes salvation. But, again, Pius XI here says nothing of those who are not alienated from the Faith, nor living in error being members of the Church. Once can certainly have the Faith and be in the State of Grace by Perfect Contrition and Charity, as happens in "Baptism" of Desire, but that does not make one a member of the Church.

But Pope Pius said that "Those who die for the faith are catechumens, and all those ... even if they have not been baptized." He thus establishes that baptism of desire does make one a catechumen, and catechumens are part of the Church.

MagisterMusicae Wrote:If membership in the Church does not require Sacramental Baptism, then why do we insist on it? What's the point, if they are already members of the Church?

Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood are recognized because in some places, Catholic clergy are not available to minister to the needs of people. Moreover, these two baptisms are essential to the salvation of those ignorant of the Catholic Faith.
:monstrance:Deo Gratias et Ave Maria! :monstrance:
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Mon arme au roi,
Mon Coeur a la dame,
Mon honneur a moi!
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#17
(08-01-2018, 07:19 PM)salus Wrote: This is the ONE dogma that even non-believers who can't believe mom didn't go to Heaven take noticeof. Just bring this teaching up at a party and see sparks fly which shows it touches the soul of people.

On a somewhat lighter note, this reminded me of this meme:

[Image: Yej5u53.png]
[Image: catherinesiena-1.jpg]
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#18
MagisterMusicae Wrote:"Jewism," Ο Θεολόγος ?

Methinks your vocabulary undermines your title ...

I do not appreciate your hostility either, which does not belong in a academic debate. Being a Θεολόγος does not mean I am perfect or that I know everything, anymore than being a priest imbues Christlike holiness. Why would one study something which one knows everything about? Doing so would be a useless endeavor, hardly a science. If you cannot appreciate me as an imperfect creature like yourself, then please don't pretensiously get involved in this discussion.

Were a insult be added to every correction, the spirit of acadmic debate would be lost.
:monstrance:Deo Gratias et Ave Maria! :monstrance:
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A Dieu mon ame,
Mon arme au roi,
Mon Coeur a la dame,
Mon honneur a moi!
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#19
Skimming the prior posts, I think Servus and Magister are talking past each other a bit by not defining terms, specifically that of "membership."  Servus seems to be simply using a broader definition than the Church uses--he seems to equate it with "belonging."  Membership is something strictly defined to include Baptism, the profession of faith, and hierarchical communion--basically those elements that mark the Church as a society and body with visible delineation. Catechumens, not being baptized, are therefore not "members."  The same goes for those who are visibly separated from the Church due to their profession of faith, etc.  But such persons, if properly disposed, can belong to the Church in a salvific way.  

I wish Fr. Hardon's thesis was still online (taken down for typos apparently)--it was basically all about this issue:
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/...dy_003.htm
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#20
(08-02-2018, 09:51 AM)ServusDei Wrote: But Pope Pius said that "Those who die for the faith are catechumens, and all those ... even if they have not been baptized." He thus establishes that baptism of desire does make one a catechumen, and catechumens are part of the Church.

Not until they die for the faith. Then they're members of the Church Triumphant, in heaven. Before then, they aren't members of the Church Militant, on earth.
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