"Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" explained
#21
Pope Pius Wrote:Those who die for the faith are catechumens, and all those who, under the inspiration of grace, without knowing of the Church of God sincerely seek to fulfill His will try to escape, even if they have not been baptized.

Notice that it contains the linking clause "and all those who" establishing the conditions for "Those... are catechumens:" "under the inspiration of grace, without knowing of the Church of God sincerely seek to fulfill His will and try to escape, even if they have not been baptized."

So those who receive a baptism of desire are catechumens too. Pay attention to the details, read it twice if you have to.
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#22
(08-02-2018, 10:01 AM)ServusDei Wrote:
MagisterMusicae Wrote:"Jewism," Ο Θεολόγος ?

Methinks your vocabulary undermines your title ...

I do not appreciate your hostility either, which does not belong in a academic debate. Being a Θεολόγος does not mean I am perfect or that I know everything, anymore than being a priest imbues Christlike holiness. Why would one study something which one knows everything about? Doing so would be a useless endeavor, hardly a science. If you cannot appreciate me as an imperfect creature like yourself, then please don't pretensiously get involved in this discussion.

Were a insult be added to every correction, the spirit of acadmic debate would be lost.

The fact of the matter is you are not a theologian, nor a Θεολόγος, and especially not a "theologist". You've never studied theology whereas MM has studied it extensively and even he doesnt call himself a theologian.

You don't read a few books about anatomy and call yourself a doctor. Theology is just as complicated a field as medicine if not moreso.

I suggest actually learning what Catholic theology teaches before attempting to debate it or else you can easily fall into heresy or else look a fool. Read some books, take a class, and maybe in the future you can become a theologian but right now you're rather inexperienced.

Not saying that you can't participate in conversations, you can learn a lot around here. Just don't go around acting like you know the answers when honestly you dont. I'm sure we would all enjoy it a little better.

Theology is a fascinating field but it's more than just speculation, it's a science with laws and theories and differeby schools of thought. There are certain things which we as Catholics know to be truthful and which are not up to debate.
Surréxit Dóminus vere, Alleluia!
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#23
(08-02-2018, 12:40 PM)Dominicus Wrote: The fact of the matter is you are not a theologian, nor a Θεολόγος, and especially not a "theologist". You've never studied theology whereas MM has studied it extensively and even he doesnt call himself a theologian.

You don't read a few books about anatomy and call yourself a doctor. Theology is just as complicated a field as medicine if not moreso.

... or else look a fool....

Spot on, Dominicus, very well said! However, it's too late. He's already made himself look an utter fool in the death penalty thread.
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#24
(08-02-2018, 10:01 AM)ServusDei Wrote:
MagisterMusicae Wrote:"Jewism," Ο Θεολόγος ?

Methinks your vocabulary undermines your title ...

I do not appreciate your hostility either, which does not belong in a academic debate. Being a Θεολόγος does not mean I am perfect or that I know everything, anymore than being a priest imbues Christlike holiness. Why would one study something which one knows everything about? Doing so would be a useless endeavor, hardly a science. If you cannot appreciate me as an imperfect creature like yourself, then please don't pretensiously get involved in this discussion.

Were a insult be added to every correction, the spirit of acadmic debate would be lost.

It was a Greek pun ... I was hoping you could take the joke and some constructive criticism. 

I'm not trying to be hostile, nor is what I said hostile. It was certainly no insult.

I am not expecting you to be perfect either or hold you to a standard I would not hold myself to—you should see how often I fat finger the keyboard in these posts, sometimes with entertaining results, and would happily accept teasing or mocking over it (and that's really not what I've done here, anyway). If I get things wrong here, I am happy to eat crow, nay, it's my duty to correct an error.

The difficulty you have created is you've self-styled yourself as a "theologian". That title demands of you a pretty high standard. It could be an insult if I gave you that title, but I did not. You gave it to yourself in your profile.

If you do that, and then propose things which do not make the necessary distinctions, or use imprecise or incorrect terminology, then you do not appear to match the claimed title.
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#25
(08-02-2018, 10:07 AM)SaintSebastian Wrote: Skimming the prior posts, I think Servus and Magister are talking past each other a bit by not defining terms, specifically that of "membership."  Servus seems to be simply using a broader definition than the Church uses--he seems to equate it with "belonging."  Membership is something strictly defined to include Baptism, the profession of faith, and hierarchical communion--basically those elements that mark the Church as a society and body with visible delineation. Catechumens, not being baptized, are therefore not "members."  The same goes for those who are visibly separated from the Church due to their profession of faith, etc.  But such persons, if properly disposed, can belong to the Church in a salvific way.  

I wish Fr. Hardon's thesis was still online (taken down for typos apparently)--it was basically all about this issue:
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/...dy_003.htm

Yes, I was trying to draw this out. We're clearly taking "membership" in a different sense.

I alluded to that in an earlier post, mentioning the "soul" and "body" metaphor used by St. Robert Bellarmine to distinguish between members stricte dicta (those who are visibly Catholics) and those who are "attached" to the Church in some way but not visibly members (called "members" in an extremely loose sense). Likewise I mentioned that if we did not make this distinction the result could be errors in Ecclesiology.

You've nailed that error here : precisely this lack of distinction leads to a denial of the Church being a Society. If that is denied, then the Protestant error of an "invisible Church" must be asserted, and eventually the only way to hold this is to say that what makes one a member of the Church is the possession of Charity—the absurdity of this being demonstrated by the fact that then by mortal sin one ceases to be a member of the Church.

Thanks for the clarity, in drawing this out!
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#26
(08-02-2018, 11:19 AM)ServusDei Wrote:
Pope Pius Wrote:Those who die for the faith are catechumens, and all those who, under the inspiration of grace, without knowing of the Church of God sincerely seek to fulfill His will try to escape, even if they have not been baptized.

Notice that it contains the linking clause "and all those who" establishing the conditions for "Those... are catechumens:" "under the inspiration of grace, without knowing of the Church of God sincerely seek to fulfill His will and try to escape, even if they have not been baptized."

So those who receive a baptism of desire are catechumens too. Pay attention to the details, read it twice if you have to.

But this only works if you accept the initial premise, which was gratuitously asserted (and as SaintSebastian points out, is because you are taking "membership" in an extremely wide sense).

Only if your premise is correct (that Catechumens are members of the Church), does Pius XI say that those who could be judges to efficaciously desire Baptism are members of the Church.

The argument is a circular one, assuming your premise.
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#27
Dominicus Wrote:You've never studied theology

Oh right. What right have I, an uneducated idiot, to even debate with learned scholars like you. You are saints, surely, I cannot be mistaken. O wise holy infallible doctors of the Church. The Lord knows that your knowledge makes you elite. Moreover, your schooling must make you absolutely right no matter what. He Himself attested to your superiority. You flawless beings, I should adore you.

Yes, there is nothing you can learn from anybody. In fact, you must be like Christ Himself, by the pride of your speech.
You should really found a Church in your own image, O flawless beings. Like you say, I should be astonished at your majesty and afraid to speak.
:monstrance:Deo Gratias et Ave Maria! :monstrance:
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A Dieu mon ame,
Mon arme au roi,
Mon Coeur a la dame,
Mon honneur a moi!
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#28
I have rights given me by Almighty God Himself and nobody shall dare take them away. Repress me you may try, but how dare you infringe upon what He has so freely given me.

jovan66102 Wrote:an utter fool

Yes. I am an utter fool. And you, an arrogant pharisee.

Dominicus Wrote:You've never studied theology whereas MM has studied it extensively and even he doesnt call himself a theologian.

I have studied the works of the Doctors of the Church. How dare you presume that I have no study in that field whatsoever. Moreover, you speak like an elitist, furthermore, a hypocrite who cannot boast of the credentials he points out lack thereof in me.

----Summary

I am angry that "Catholics" such as Dominicus and "moderators" such as jovan66102 dare to call themselves such. "Utter fool," that seems very moderate, does it not? And Dominicus, you are deficit in Christlike charity. Thou art the cancer in the Church, that which poisons it and brings about its ruin. Thou are he that taunts the ignorant, ignorant though thou art. Before you presume to take the splinter out of my eye, take that log cabin out of your own.

Alas, were I able to see Christ in you. Alas, were I able to see Christ in others. He is repressed in the tabernacle. Will no-one invite Him into themselves?
:monstrance:Deo Gratias et Ave Maria! :monstrance:
Pray the Rosary

A Dieu mon ame,
Mon arme au roi,
Mon Coeur a la dame,
Mon honneur a moi!
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#29
Have you or have you not formally studied theology? Reading a few works from the doctors does not a theologian make, if so I'm sure half the people on this forum are theologians.

If you havnt noticed, I don't claim to be a theologian. I may very well have a log cabin but you are living in a glass house.

Now thank you for judging the state of my soul but I have a confessor for that.
Surréxit Dóminus vere, Alleluia!
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#30
(08-02-2018, 12:40 PM)Dominicus Wrote: You don't read a few books about anatomy and call yourself a doctor. Theology is just as complicated a field as medicine if not moreso.

I thought one just had to self identify as a doctor, theologian, whatever. All about the "feels." Spend a night at a Holiday Inn Express, and you're golden. :P You don't read a few books about anatomy and call yourself a doctor.



(08-03-2018, 10:07 AM)ServusDei Wrote: Repress me you may try, but how dare you infringe upon what He has so freely given me.

With all respect, I don't think anyone's trying to repress you. That being said, when you launch hyperventilating spasms such as

Quote:Oh right. What right have I, an uneducated idiot, to even debate with learned scholars like you. You are saints, surely, I cannot be mistaken. O wise holy infallible doctors of the Church. The Lord knows that your knowledge makes you elite. Moreover, your schooling must make you absolutely right no matter what. He Himself attested to your superiority. You flawless beings, I should adore you.

Yes, there is nothing you can learn from anybody. In fact, you must be like Christ Himself, by the pride of your speech.
You should really found a Church in your own image, O flawless beings. Like you say, I should be astonished at your majesty and afraid to speak.

you draw a bit of attention to yourself.

On that note, it's getting a bit tense in here, or is it just me? Let's all step back, take a deep breath, and mellow out to some Grateful Dead.

-sent by howitzer via the breech.

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