Islam in the Catechism
#1
I have had this concern for some time now and was wondering if anyone had any insight or experience dealing with this particular issue in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (from JP II).
On the subject of Muslims, the CCC states the following:
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day"
My problem with this is that we Catholics worship the Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and of course following this we worship Jesus Christ as the Second Person of the Trinity, whereas Muslims believe that Christ was simply a man and a prophet. Immediately there seems to be a discrepancy, as we cannot "together with us adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day" if they do not adore Jesus Christ who is God. I understand that the Catechism is not infallible but this seems to be a pretty large error following my line of reasoning. Thoughts on this?
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#2
(08-04-2018, 12:29 PM)friendly.neighborhood.papist Wrote: I have had this concern for some time now and was wondering if anyone had any insight or experience dealing with this particular issue in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (from JP II).
On the subject of Muslims, the CCC states the following:
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day"
My problem with this is that we Catholics worship the Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and of course following this we worship Jesus Christ as the Second Person of the Trinity, whereas Muslims believe that Christ was simply a man and a prophet. Immediately there seems to be a discrepancy, as we cannot "together with us adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day" if they do not adore Jesus Christ who is God. I understand that the Catechism is not infallible but this seems to be a pretty large error following my line of reasoning. Thoughts on this?

Peace.....well, the Jewish people believe Jesus was not the Son of God and just a prophet, so why weren't they mentioned - and only the Muslims?  hmmm....God bless, angeltime Heart
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#3
(08-04-2018, 01:23 PM)angeltime Wrote:
(08-04-2018, 12:29 PM)friendly.neighborhood.papist Wrote: I have had this concern for some time now and was wondering if anyone had any insight or experience dealing with this particular issue in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (from JP II).
On the subject of Muslims, the CCC states the following:
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day"
My problem with this is that we Catholics worship the Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and of course following this we worship Jesus Christ as the Second Person of the Trinity, whereas Muslims believe that Christ was simply a man and a prophet. Immediately there seems to be a discrepancy, as we cannot "together with us adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day" if they do not adore Jesus Christ who is God. I understand that the Catechism is not infallible but this seems to be a pretty large error following my line of reasoning. Thoughts on this?

Peace.....well, the Jewish people believe Jesus was not the Son of God and just a prophet, so why weren't they mentioned - and only the Muslims?  hmmm....God bless, angeltime Heart
The Jews are mentioned in the previous canon:
839 The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
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#4
(08-04-2018, 01:43 PM)friendly.neighborhood.papist Wrote:
(08-04-2018, 01:23 PM)angeltime Wrote:
(08-04-2018, 12:29 PM)friendly.neighborhood.papist Wrote: I have had this concern for some time now and was wondering if anyone had any insight or experience dealing with this particular issue in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (from JP II).
On the subject of Muslims, the CCC states the following:
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day"
My problem with this is that we Catholics worship the Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and of course following this we worship Jesus Christ as the Second Person of the Trinity, whereas Muslims believe that Christ was simply a man and a prophet. Immediately there seems to be a discrepancy, as we cannot "together with us adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day" if they do not adore Jesus Christ who is God. I understand that the Catechism is not infallible but this seems to be a pretty large error following my line of reasoning. Thoughts on this?

Peace.....well, the Jewish people believe Jesus was not the Son of God and just a prophet, so why weren't they mentioned - and only the Muslims?  hmmm....God bless, angeltime Heart
The Jews are mentioned in the previous canon:
839 The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
Peace.....thankyou for the update on the Canon!  God bless, angeltime Heart
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#5
Last week when the pedo scandal erupted, I said that people would be well served having our clergy give a few old fashioned Hellfire and Brimstone sermons. Letting laity know that clergy are not automatically exempt from wanting to pack an air condition upon death would actually make your average liberal Catholic find the topic palatable.

In the era of Pope Francis foot washing Muslims, the same type of stance should be taken concerning Jihadists. I don't label all Muslims as Jihadists, but the fact is that Islamic theocracies tend to tilt radical. That's where the problem lies in my opinion. The Kurds are an example of what I wish Muslims would be all around.

18 years ago when Yahoo chat was a thing, I actually went into a Muslim chat room and asked if they thought Jews and Christians are going to hell. The response I received was "Nobody that believes in the God of Abraham has anything to fear on the last day."

In these matters of unsurety I simply pray. I'd wager that the Muslim who told me that has a better shot at salvation than Fred Phelps, but again I leave these matters in God's hands.
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#6
(08-04-2018, 12:29 PM)friendly.neighborhood.papist Wrote: I have had this concern for some time now and was wondering if anyone had any insight or experience dealing with this particular issue in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (from JP II).
On the subject of Muslims, the CCC states the following:
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day"
My problem with this is that we Catholics worship the Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and of course following this we worship Jesus Christ as the Second Person of the Trinity, whereas Muslims believe that Christ was simply a man and a prophet. Immediately there seems to be a discrepancy, as we cannot "together with us adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day" if they do not adore Jesus Christ who is God. I understand that the Catechism is not infallible but this seems to be a pretty large error following my line of reasoning. Thoughts on this?

The plan of salvation includes everyone, since God wants all men to be saved. Yet some will refuse to co-operate with His plan.

Whether the Christian God and the Muslim God can be the same has been discussed ad nauseam here before, and I have no interest in the same arguments again, but, to summarise, it comes down to whether one can deny the Trinity but still be referring to the same deity. I say you can but that you're in error; others say you can't, that denial of the Trinity means you're talking about a different god. Those who hold the latter opinion would also have to say that the Jews do not worship the same God, either.
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#7
(08-04-2018, 02:23 PM)redneckpride4ever Wrote: Last week when the pedo scandal erupted, I said that people would be well served having our clergy give a few old fashioned Hellfire and Brimstone sermons.

Don't you know that Vatican II got rid of Hell? And now that the death penalty is immoral, they're good here on earth, too.
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#8
Quote:Last week when the pedo scandal erupted

No wonder they got rid of Hell.  Wouldn't you if you were in their shoes?
Rome will lose the faith and become the seat of the antichrist. 
The demons of the air together with the Antichrist will perform great wonders  
The Church will be in eclipse

-Our Lady of La Salette


Like Christ, His Bride the Church will undergo its own passion, burial, and resurrection.
-unknown traditional priest

Father Ripperger said that if we are detached from all things, aren't afraid to suffer, and we accept all suffering as the will of God for our sanctity, we have nothing to fear!
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#9
Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12

                                                                Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son, hath the Father also. 1 St John 2:23

                                                                 He that hath the Son, hath life. He that hath not the Son, hath not life. 1 St John 5:12

                                                                   Put's into perspective how inaccurate the current catechism is.

                                                       
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#10
(08-05-2018, 09:10 AM)Eric F Wrote: Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12

                                                                Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son, hath the Father also. 1 St John 2:23

                                                                 He that hath the Son, hath life. He that hath not the Son, hath not life. 1 St John 5:12

                                                                   Put's into perspective how inaccurate the current catechism is.

                                                       

Where’s the inaccuracy? I don’t see anything in paragraph 841 that says non-Catholics will be saved by their false worship, even if it’s of the true God. Not everyone who says, Lord, Lord will be saved. And Jews and Muslims, even if they worship the Father, deny the Son.
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