Pope Leo XIII
#11
(08-08-2018, 08:52 PM)Some Guy Wrote: I’m convinced JPII will get his sainthood revoked when the restoration happens and same for Paul VI.

I’m not sure about that, but I definitely think that over time the personality cult surrounding John Paul II will die, and what is left won’t impress. One day, church historians will look at him more objectively, and they will find a man who was perhaps personally holy and very intelligent, but who had a particularly severe problem with misjudging others’ characters. They will also find that he had a weakness for flattery. He will continue to be listed among the saints, but his feast day will be removed from the calendar altogether.

Jesus rebuked the storm and calmed it. John Paul II did not. He rebuked the people, and engaged the storm.
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#12
(08-09-2018, 05:47 AM)Credidi Propter Wrote: I’m not sure about that, but I definitely think that over time the personality cult surrounding John Paul II will die, and what is left won’t impress. 

As this thread shows with Leo XIII as an example, if things keep progressing as they are, the opposite will be true--JPII will be even more fondly thought of in faithful Catholics' minds.

Traditionalist favor of Leo XIII is relatively new and only for the fact of how he looks in comparison to many of his successors.  In fact, he is the one that put us on the road to Vatican II with his willingness to engage positively with the Liberal order (a direct reversal of the policies of his predecessor).  His papacy was known in some circles as the Church’s 1789 long before Vatican II, for “baptizing” the Revolution’s ideas of human rights and dignity. Even the idea of a social encyclical Rerum Novarum was criticized at the time for distracting from the Church's true mission with too much of a focus on worldly things (given the increased focus on social issues to the neglect of the transcendent culminating in our time, those critics kind of had a point).

Pius X's name choice and opening of the cause of Pius IX was a rebuke of Leo's reversal--but it was only a brief one.  His successor, Benedict XV (Giacomo della Chiesa), had been the personal secretary of Leo XIII's liberal secretary of state, Cardinal Rampolla.  Della Chiesa was even known as "Little Rampolla" and despite being named Archbishop of Bologna, Pius X denied him the cardinalate until Rampolla died so that there couldn't be two Rampollas in a conclave. But when Della Chiesa was elected as Benedict XV, he put the Church back on the path Leo had.  Pius XI did so even more, including suppressing Action Francais and immediately initiating his own ralliement with the liberal Italian regime (something even Leo and Benedict would not do given how the liberal Italian state had treated the papacy). And, well, Pius XII is the most cited Pope by Vatican II for a reason.  

My long point being, the continued progress toward Liberalism initiated by Leo XIII has progressed to the point where Leo XIII has himself become a hero of more traditional Catholics.  I don't see why the same won't be said for John Paul II if things keep going the Francis direction.
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#13
(08-09-2018, 10:06 AM)SaintSebastian Wrote:
(08-09-2018, 05:47 AM)Credidi Propter Wrote: I’m not sure about that, but I definitely think that over time the personality cult surrounding John Paul II will die, and what is left won’t impress. 

As this thread shows with Leo XIII as an example, if things keep progressing as they are, the opposite will be true--JPII will be even more fondly thought of in faithful Catholics' minds.

Traditionalist favor of Leo XIII is relatively new and only for the fact of how he looks in comparison to many of his successors.  In fact, he is the one that put us on the road to Vatican II with his willingness to engage positively with the Liberal order (a direct reversal of the policies of his predecessor).  His papacy was known in some circles as the Church’s 1789 long before Vatican II, for “baptizing” the Revolution’s ideas of human rights and dignity. Even the idea of a social encyclical Rerum Novarum was criticized at the time for distracting from the Church's true mission with too much of a focus on worldly things (given the increased focus on social issues to the neglect of the transcendent culminating in our time, those critics kind of had a point).

Pius X's name choice and opening of the cause of Pius IX was a rebuke of Leo's reversal--but it was only a brief one.  His successor, Benedict XV (Giacomo della Chiesa), had been the personal secretary of Leo XIII's liberal secretary of state, Cardinal Rampolla.  Della Chiesa was even known as "Little Rampolla" and despite being named Archbishop of Bologna, Pius X denied him the cardinalate until Rampolla died so that there couldn't be two Rampollas in a conclave. But when Della Chiesa was elected as Benedict XV, he put the Church back on the path Leo had.  Pius XI did so even more, including suppressing Action Francais and immediately initiating his own ralliement with the liberal Italian regime (something even Leo and Benedict would not do given how the liberal Italian state had treated the papacy). And, well, Pius XII is the most cited Pope by Vatican II for a reason.  

My long point being, the continued progress toward Liberalism initiated by Leo XIII has progressed to the point where Leo XIII has himself become a hero of more traditional Catholics.  I don't see why the same won't be said for John Paul II if things keep going the Francis direction.

Yup. Same thing can be said of Pius XII, traditionalists tend to have a super romanticized view of the guy because he wore a tiara and celebrated the old mass. They seem to forget that it was him who actualized the liturgical movement (Bugnini, Holy Week), was a great innovator (displaced the ancient feast of Philip and James for the newfangled St. Joseph the Worker), re-working the feast of the Assumption (displacing St. John of Damascus in Matins with his own encyclical which told us practically nothing), and greatly supported and promoted the future Paul VI. Any move to canonize Pius XII is part of the same move to canonize Vatican II and everything that has to do with it.
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#14
I agree that he was too willing to be politically expedient is some regards. But I’m not convinced that makes him equivalent to a Koran Kisser. He still attacked Modernism. He promoted the Rosary, Mariology, and Thomism. He was definitely very focused corporal works of mercy in many ways which is often seen as Liberal, but isn’t inherently Liberal, and isn’t that to be expected of someone whose career was focused on managing Papal States rather than being a theologian hidden away in monastic life?

I need to do more reading on him before I can say more. But I’m not convinced he’s quite the Liberal Humanist that your summary paints him to be.
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#15
I think most trads these days know Leo XIII for his vision of where Satan is given time and power by Our Lord to destroy the Church, to which he composed the St. Michael prayer and instituted the prayers after Mass. Seeing how things have unfolded since then makes him a bit of a prophet and IMO is a large piece of what garners him such popularity among trads.
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#16
Part of my interest in him, and this is severely under researched so please by all means, someone tell me if I’m wrong. Is that we was the last Pope to tweak the Holy Mass and Breviary without making large praxis changes.
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#17
I am surprised to hear that traditional Catholics hold an unmerited romantic ideology for Pius Xll beyond the fidelity due to a holy pope, which I do hold. I don’t really know what larger traditional circles or the greater Novus Ordo Catholic population thinks, my circle does not extend much beyond our SSPX chapel, and here for that matter.

I will be honest,  I don’t have a well enough educated opinion on the liturgical changes imposed by Pius Xll and what their consequential influence on Vatican ll turned out to be in hindsight. Not that I disagree with what his critics say, but history always magnifies the unintended consequences that cannot always be foreseen in the moment.  I cannot speak for the influence he allowed to the agents of change that surrounded him, but he did have his hands full perpetually with Hitlers war, the post war Soviet aggression under Stalin, and from 1951 onward, he was really sick. I read once he proposed resigning because he was in such poor health.  

None of this is a defence on my part,  but the basis for my own personal desire to see him canonized is because I feel he has more than met the cause for sainthood based upon the actual criteria; notably the heroic virtue for his role in saving of hundreds of thousands of Jews from the holocaust. This was distorted after the war by the communists in an effort to subvert global church influence to the point that both Pius Xll and the church were actually painted to be complicit in the holocaust. Thankfully historians are amending that error now.

He was also a very holy man (even his critics credit him this), and he was heavily intertwined with the Virgin Mary throughout his papacy.  He is known to have seen the Miracle of the sun in the Vatican gardens multiple times when he was defining the dogma of the assumption. 

Anyhow, I hope to see his canonization proceed - I would hate to think it would simply be a canonization of Vll.
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#18
Another problem with Pope Leo XIII -- who I do not believe should be canonised or beatified -- was his creation of the Leonine Prayers. However good the Leonine Prayers were intended to be, the serious problem with them was that they were approved to be spoken in the vernacular.

As Fr. Gregory Hesse of blessed memory explained it, the Leonine Prayers were the first time in memory that a Catholic priest would speak in the vernacular, in the sanctuary, while wearing Mass vestments. There's a reason why priests remove the chasuble before the Sermon -- not just because the Sermon is not part of Mass, but also because the Sermon is in vernacular and is in a very strict sense, profanes the Mass if Mass vestments are worn during it. 

We should thank God for Pope Leo XIII, a generally good Pope, but I believe we should resist any moves to canonise him.
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#19
Hmm... I've never seen a priest remove the chasuble for the homily. Interesting.
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#20
(08-10-2018, 12:08 AM)Mark Williams Wrote: Another problem with Pope Leo XIII -- who I do not believe should be canonised or beatified -- was his creation of the Leonine Prayers. However good the Leonine Prayers were intended to be, the serious problem with them was that they were approved to be spoken in the vernacular.

As Fr. Gregory Hesse of blessed memory explained it, the Leonine Prayers were the first time in memory that a Catholic priest would speak in the vernacular, in the sanctuary, while wearing Mass vestments. There's a reason why priests remove the chasuble before the Sermon -- not just because the Sermon is not part of Mass, but also because the Sermon is in vernacular and is in a very strict sense, profanes the Mass if Mass vestments are worn during it. 

We should thank God for Pope Leo XIII, a generally good Pope, but I believe we should resist any moves to canonise him.

Except the Leonine prayers weren’t part of the Mass either. They were prayers for after the Mass. Hence, they were not profaning the Mass.

I don’t know who Fr Gregory Hesse is, but he’s wrong.
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