Pope Leo XIII
#21
(08-10-2018, 06:05 AM)Some Guy Wrote:
(08-10-2018, 12:08 AM)Mark Williams Wrote: Another problem with Pope Leo XIII -- who I do not believe should be canonised or beatified -- was his creation of the Leonine Prayers. However good the Leonine Prayers were intended to be, the serious problem with them was that they were approved to be spoken in the vernacular.

As Fr. Gregory Hesse of blessed memory explained it, the Leonine Prayers were the first time in memory that a Catholic priest would speak in the vernacular, in the sanctuary, while wearing Mass vestments. There's a reason why priests remove the chasuble before the Sermon -- not just because the Sermon is not part of Mass, but also because the Sermon is in vernacular and is in a very strict sense, profanes the Mass if Mass vestments are worn during it. 

We should thank God for Pope Leo XIII, a generally good Pope, but I believe we should resist any moves to canonise him.

Except the Leonine prayers weren’t part of the Mass either. They were prayers for after the Mass. Hence, they were not profaning the Mass.

I don’t know who Fr Gregory Hesse is, but he’s wrong.

You should search him up. His materials on YouTube are very important to listen to.

Of course the Leonine Prayers are not part of the Mass. I thought I made that clear.

The problem is that you have a priest wearing Mass vestments speaking in the vernacular in the sanctuary. That is what helped people to eventually accept the Mass itself in the vernacular.

As to priests removing the chasuble for the sermon, I thought this was commonplace. It is always done at my Institute of Christ the King church. I think it should be done everywhere.
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#22
(08-10-2018, 02:15 PM)Mark Williams Wrote:
(08-10-2018, 06:05 AM)Some Guy Wrote:
(08-10-2018, 12:08 AM)Mark Williams Wrote: Another problem with Pope Leo XIII -- who I do not believe should be canonised or beatified -- was his creation of the Leonine Prayers. However good the Leonine Prayers were intended to be, the serious problem with them was that they were approved to be spoken in the vernacular.

As Fr. Gregory Hesse of blessed memory explained it, the Leonine Prayers were the first time in memory that a Catholic priest would speak in the vernacular, in the sanctuary, while wearing Mass vestments. There's a reason why priests remove the chasuble before the Sermon -- not just because the Sermon is not part of Mass, but also because the Sermon is in vernacular and is in a very strict sense, profanes the Mass if Mass vestments are worn during it. 

We should thank God for Pope Leo XIII, a generally good Pope, but I believe we should resist any moves to canonise him.

Except the Leonine prayers weren’t part of the Mass either. They were prayers for after the Mass. Hence, they were not profaning the Mass.

I don’t know who Fr Gregory Hesse is, but he’s wrong.

You should search him up. His materials on YouTube are very important to listen to.

Of course the Leonine Prayers are not part of the Mass. I thought I made that clear.

The problem is that you have a priest wearing Mass vestments speaking in the vernacular in the sanctuary. That is what helped people to eventually accept the Mass itself in the vernacular.

As to priests removing the chasuble for the sermon, I thought this was commonplace. It is always done at my Institute of Christ the King church. I think it should be done everywhere.
I have seen our priests remove the Maniple for the sermon, never the chasuble for the sermon.
"Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?" On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."  Matthew 9:10-14
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#23
(08-10-2018, 03:28 PM)The Tax Collector Wrote: I have seen our priests remove the Maniple for the sermon, never the chasuble for the sermon.

That's what I've seen as well.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

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#24
I think I've seen the priest give the homily without a chasuble once or twice, but at most TLMs I've been to, he only removes the maniple.

But there's also nothing evil about Mass in the vernacular. There are potential problems with it, including the risk of making it too familiar and about man rather than God, and the ability of the priest to ad-lib, but Latin was once the vernacular, too. The problem with the new Mass is its desire to be acceptable to Protestants, not the language. I would much rather have the 1962 Missal in English than the 1970 Missal in Latin.
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#25
(08-10-2018, 03:58 PM)Paul Wrote: But there's also nothing evil about Mass in the vernacular. There are potential problems with it, including the risk of making it too familiar and about man rather than God, and the ability of the priest to ad-lib, but Latin was once the vernacular, too. The problem with the new Mass is its desire to be acceptable to Protestants, not the language. I would much rather have the 1962 Missal in English than the 1970 Missal in Latin.

And so say I!
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
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My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'


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#26
(08-10-2018, 04:21 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(08-10-2018, 03:58 PM)Paul Wrote: But there's also nothing evil about Mass in the vernacular. There are potential problems with it, including the risk of making it too familiar and about man rather than God, and the ability of the priest to ad-lib, but Latin was once the vernacular, too. The problem with the new Mass is its desire to be acceptable to Protestants, not the language. I would much rather have the 1962 Missal in English than the 1970 Missal in Latin.

And so say I!

And let me throw in my hand here, too.

Indeed, if I am correct in my understanding, and Jovan feel free to correct me on this, certain members of the Anglo-Catholic movement in Anglicanism essentially did just that.  They had the same Mass that Catholics would, all the rubrics and prayers, except it was vernacular.  

Of course, it counts for nothing since the man isn't a priest.  But, had that been all that was done to the Liturgy after the Council, we would be doing pretty decent in terms of worship.  Course, you're gonna need to include the Latin hymns and propers, just because I think it would be insanely foolish to cut ties with all that musical patrimony.
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#27
(08-10-2018, 04:59 PM)Justin Alphonsus Wrote: Indeed, if I am correct in my understanding, and Jovan feel free to correct me on this, certain members of the Anglo-Catholic movement in Anglicanism essentially did just that.  They had the same Mass that Catholics would, all the rubrics and prayers, except it was vernacular.  

Of course, it counts for nothing since the man isn't a priest.  But, had that been all that was done to the Liturgy after the Council, we would be doing pretty decent in terms of worship.  Course, you're gonna need to include the Latin hymns and propers, just because I think it would be insanely foolish to cut ties with all that musical patrimony.

You are quite correct. Some Anglo-Catholic parishes used the TLM Englished (a few actually just celebrated it in Latin!), others used the BCP Communion Service, but with all the 'missing parts', introits, etc. of the Roman Mass inserted in the proper place in a translation done by William Tyndale in the early days of the Deformation.

In many parishes it was impossible, except for the language, to tell the difference.

***ETA*** True story! In my last Anglo-Catholic parish, we actually had Catholics come in, go to confession, and then when 'Mass' began, realise they weren't in a Catholic Church. The cleric wore a cassock and biretta, there was a side chapel dedicated to the BVM, the high altar was dedicated to the Annunciation. Hard to tell the difference.

BTW, you're in good company with your remark, 'had that been all that was done to the Liturgy after the Council'. William F. Buckley said essentially the same thing when faced with the horrors of the Novus Ordo and its loosey goosey translation.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
  “Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)” 
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My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'


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#28
(08-10-2018, 04:59 PM)Justin Alphonsus Wrote: Course, you're gonna need to include the Latin hymns and propers, just because I think it would be insanely foolish to cut ties with all that musical patrimony.

And Gregorian chant just doesn't work in English.
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#29
(08-10-2018, 05:47 PM)Paul Wrote:
(08-10-2018, 04:59 PM)Justin Alphonsus Wrote: Course, you're gonna need to include the Latin hymns and propers, just because I think it would be insanely foolish to cut ties with all that musical patrimony.

And Gregorian chant just doesn't work in English.

There's certainly difficulty with preserving rhythm due to translation, but I'd actually be really interested to hear something like this done well, and I think it could potentially have use that would be positive depending on the context.
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#30
(08-08-2018, 07:22 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: He did some amazing things. Rerum novarum, and his other Encyclicals. He also almost single handedly destroyed the Church in France by calling for support of the Satanic Republic, which led directly to the 1905 Law on the Separation of Church and State which resulted in the confiscation of all Church property by the State, the strict regulation of Religious Orders, the expulsion from France of the contemplatives as 'useless', etc., etc. The Church is still suffering from the effects of his rash, ill advised, and extremely imprudent move. Of course, he didn't live to see the fruit of his action. It was left to St Pius X to deal with.

His support for the French Republic was in order to forestall those kind of persecutions that was brought about. The Second Book of Macchabees records how the high priest Onias sought to be conciliative with his enemies so that they would have no basis to say that he was not a seeker of peace. It is those like the high priest Onias and Pope Leo XII of whom Jesus said, "Blessed are the peace makers."
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