Bergoglio Under Fire
#1
Present headline on Drudge:

[Image: PopeUnderFire.png?dl=0]

Pope Francis' speech was 'disgraceful' and contained 'extraordinary deflection', victims claim


Quote:Clerical abuse survivor Colm O’Gorman has described the speech by Pope Francis at Dublin Castle as an “incredible missed opportunity”.

Speaking after he attended the civic reception for the Pontiff, Mr Gorman said: “It is staggering to me that in 2018 we are still asking a Pope to take responsibility, not for his own actions necessarily but for the actions of the institution that he heads.

“It’s mind-boggling to me that to ask the Pope to tell the damn truth is a radical thing to suggest.” [Hear! Hear!]

...

“It’s a huge shame. Frankly it’s rather disgraceful. This is about criminality at the highest level within an institution,” Mr O'Gorman said.

He added: “The Vatican has directed, implemented and instituted a cover of the crimes of clergy [and bishops!]...."

“When he talks about his sadness and grief at the harm that I and others suffered, what does that mean? I was thought (sic) as a toddler by my parents that if I wanted to apologi[z]e for something, the first thing I had to do was take responsibility for my own actions.”

One protester, from Pennsylvania, [stated] "So much has been covered up by bishops in the Catholic Church," the woman said. "I was so small when I was abused, not by a member of the Church but it was covered up by the Church.


"Everyone knew, my mother, the teachers in school, everyone but that was back in the 70s and everyone was so afraid of the Church.


"It was important for me and other victims, to be here today, to use Pope Francis' visit as a stage for protest, to force change in the  Church - that bishops must no longer be allowed to cover up child abuse.

...


Richard Duffy, who brandished a sign bearing the words “arrest the pope” said that the Pope is "guilty of crimes and should be held to account".

“Abuse and the cover-up of crimes is ongoing. There are plenty of people all the way up who deserve to be arrested,” he said, adding that he believed that anyone in the Church from the position of Cardinal up has been involved in some form of cover-up.


He added that he respected and admired the core Catholic message of love and compassion but added: “It’s those who believe in it who are most betrayed by the Vatican.”

Minerva Viga said that this visit brought back painful memories for her and other victims of abuse. As a child in Mexico, she said she attended a local Catholic school where the nuns would feed her  -  but one priest beat her frequently. She said she was there in the hope it would help protect other children.


“I’m here because I want to ask the Pope for justice for victims of abuse,” she said. “I’m here because I suffered. I attended a Catholic school in Mexico and the priest used to hit me almost every day. I’m looking for justice for the children who were abused. Today is such a hard day.”



Leila Said Gutowski, an American woman living in Ireland, said she felt “safer” demonstrating here following recent events in Ireland including the repealing of the Eight Amendment and added: “We are all watching Ireland.” She said she was abused as a child by a lay-teacher under the Catholic system in Erie, Pennsylvania, in the mid 1970s and has spent years calling for justice.


“I’m calling for zero tolerance and the arrests of those involved in colluding,” she said. “We’re here to speak for those who are suffering.”



Keep the pressure on.  Keep the pressure on.
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#2
The Pope should not apologise for what previous popes did or didn’t do. All that does is create an admission the Church was wrong which her enemies will use to attack her for anything they disapprove of. Apologies like this don’t do any good and aren’t what the people asking for them really want. If the Church needs cleaning up, do it, but a politically-correct apology does nothing to help.
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#3
Francis seriously risks being under a different kind of fire when all is said and done, if he doesn’t change his ways. Pray for him.
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#4
(08-25-2018, 04:41 PM)Paul Wrote: The Pope should not apologise (sic) for what previous popes did or didn’t do. 

Not sure where this is coming from as the article I cited wasn't about people being upset because he was simply  apologizing for others.  Nor have I been able to find any text of his recent speech wherein he was apologizing for past popes.  

Regardless, his feet needs to be held to the fire.  As the sign Harry Truman famously kept on his desk once said, "The Buck Stops Here" and he should not be allowed to wiggle his way out of this one.
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#5
(08-25-2018, 04:41 PM)Paul Wrote: The Pope should not apologise for what previous popes did or didn’t do. All that does is create an admission the Church was wrong which her enemies will use to attack her for anything they disapprove of. Apologies like this don’t do any good and aren’t what the people asking for them really want. If the Church needs cleaning up, do it, but a politically-correct apology does nothing to help.

Peace.....I think it is beyond apologies.  It is more than time enough to take action and perhaps with this visit to PA by his Vatican official on abuse cases, there will be action taken like there was in Chile.  It would be more hopeful to both victims and the people of the Church, if P Fr apologized but said, "Something WILL be done about this."  This is the reassurance they need and then to see it followed through.  Sorry isn't cutting it anymore!  God bless, angeltime :heart:
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#6
They've learned nothing! It was announced on Saturday that Francis has appointed 'Nighty Night, Baby' Tobin, one of McCarrick's creatures, to attend the Youth Synod. As I've said before, I wonder how many of McCarrick's, Tobin's and Martin's buddies will be cruising the Synod looking for fresh meat! :@
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#7
(08-26-2018, 02:11 AM)jovan66102 Wrote: They've learned nothing! It was announced on Saturday that Francis has appointed 'Nighty Night, Baby' Tobin, one of McCarrick's creatures, to attend the Youth Synod. As I've said before, I wonder how many of McCarrick's, Tobin's and Martin's buddies will be cruising the Synod looking for fresh meat! :@

You will not learn, if you are a part of the problem. Francis is a huge part of the problem.
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#8
If this is all true - Pope Francis is a criminal, plain and simple. He's either delusional thinking he's for God, or he's really not and trying to wreck the Church. Either way he's unfit to be pope, or any other type of clergy.

And I get to listen to a homily today by a priest that seems to think this pope walks on water.
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#9
(08-26-2018, 07:44 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: If this is all true - Pope Francis is a criminal, plain and simple.  He's either delusional thinking he's for God, or he's really not and trying to wreck the Church.  Either way he's unfit to be pope, or any other type of clergy.

And I get to listen to a homily today by a priest that seems to think this pope walks on water.
Peace.....yes, sad to say a lot of people will be blown away by this news.  God bless, angeltime :heart:
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#10
Having this mind set of who is to blame , can be tricky.. if not dangerous. I am intrigued by people who are actually against our current Pope.. I realize he isn't popular. probably a bit too left and or liberal for some, i know he is for me, but i dont hate the guy. People seem to forget this problem isn't isolated or the first time it has happened. This has been an issue under Pope now Saint John Paul II / and I personally question how he can be considered a saint when under his leadership this issue was covered up. He would have been literally deaf and blind to not of at the very least heard or seen rumors of the crimes being commited by clergy under his leadership. Now what is being expressed here is what bothers me with the Church, which is it is a Monarchy, there is nothing to protect the people from criminals and or bad leadership, there is nothing written in any legal sense that says, you the lay people have certain rights, when concerns arise this is the actions you are to take and your concerns must be heard and an answer must be given.

If we are going down the road to picking apart popes we do not like, and want to accuse of being criminals, then we must look at the entire system and start asking questions as well. And to just draw a line and say well we can only go this far; I do not find to be fair. Why is it okay for people to declare when a schism is valid, or to declare that either Vatican I or II is the only valid what ever. But it isn't fair for someone to say the Church has no right to declare me a sinner or going to hell if I choose to leave the church for what ever reason.

Why are clergy as high as Cardinals allowed to have such dissenting opinions that do not put the pope in a favorable light but when it comes to the layity we are expected to toe the line, and please forgive and please keep giving.

Then people like to revert back to the original contextual meanings to scripture what a word actually meant during the life of Jesus versus now. The word Church , used by Jesus is a very very different word than what it is today and more over the word church means something different depending what branch of christianity uses it. For catholics the Roman Catholic faith is the Church, for others the Church is the brick and mortar building, etc....

An now I am supposed to believe, that I should to listen to a theologian or any clergy really on the aspects of morality and christianity when there is all this chaos, and differing of opinions. I always have the feeling that I am supposed to believe that the leaders of the Catholic Church are holier than I am, and have a better understand of God and Christ than I do. And am constantly being told time and again that well you are just looking at things the wrong way and need to be better educated. An I am like really ?

If there are so many actual clergy that are criminals, that have theological accredited degrees , If lets say there is an overwhelming majority of Catholics that really feel Pope Francis is a Criminal and unfit to be Pope, and people feel that either vatican I or II is what ever.. Then exactly why shouldn't I listen to my conscience that God gave me and has been guiding me with in making decisions as to when I want to go to mass or not. or even stay in the Church. Let alone believe that the Church can supercede Gods judgement on if God will send me to hell, purgatory , or heaven.

Because from my view point, I am on better footing than a majority of clergy, I discerned a religious life as a priest and as a monk, and I finally was given the chance to become a benedictine monk, and, had i kept my mouth shut, had i just kept smiling and nodding in agreement with everyone where I was, I could have easily hands down taken full vows, and with in 20 some odd years been in a leadership role with in the order I was with and been able to run things in a way I saw better than what was being done.

Instead my life took a different turn, and I couldn't tolerate faking enjoying what was going on in that order and i left. For better or worse I made a tough call in my life, instead of staying and gambling that I could make a better difference in the end, infact im facing poverty head on right now. Imagine had these actual criminals, had the nerve to step down and out of service the moment they first crossed that line. How much better off they would have been in terms of their eternal soul and how much better the church would have been with out them.


I know not everyone is going to agree with what I think and say , I have taken the long road to figure that out and to not take it personal in an online open forum. And I don't like playing tit for tat, I state what I have to say, If someone disagrees with me fine. but im not going back and forth and trying to win an arguement that isn't worth the time and drama. I am not trying to persuade anyone. I am merely wanting to be heard.
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