Bergoglio Under Fire
#11
(08-26-2018, 08:53 AM)originalscreenname Wrote: Having this mind set of who is to blame , can be tricky.. if not dangerous. I am intrigued by people who are actually against our current Pope.. I realize he isn't popular. probably a bit too left and or liberal for some, i know he is for me, but i dont hate the guy. People seem to forget this problem isn't isolated or the first time it has happened.  This has been an issue under Pope now Saint John Paul II / and I personally question how he can be considered a saint when under his leadership this issue was covered up. He would have been literally deaf and blind to not of at the very least heard or seen rumors of the crimes being commited by clergy under his leadership.  Now what is being expressed here is what bothers me with the Church, which is it is a Monarchy,  there is nothing to protect the people from criminals and or bad leadership, there is nothing written in any legal sense that says, you the lay people have certain rights, when concerns arise this is the actions you are to take and your concerns must be heard and an answer must be given.  

If we are going down the road to picking apart popes we do not like, and want to accuse of being criminals, then we must look at the entire system and start asking questions as well.  And to just draw a line and say well we can only go this far; I do not find to be fair.  Why is it okay for people to declare when a schism is valid, or to declare that  either Vatican I or II is the only valid what ever. But it isn't fair for someone to say the Church has no right to declare me a sinner or going to hell if I choose to leave the church for what ever reason.

Why are clergy as high as Cardinals allowed to have such dissenting opinions that do not put the pope in a favorable light but when it comes to the layity we are expected to toe the line, and please forgive and please keep giving.

Then people like to revert back to the original contextual meanings to scripture what a word actually meant during the life of Jesus versus now.  The word Church , used by Jesus is a very very different word than what it is today and more over the word church means something different depending what branch of christianity uses it. For catholics the Roman Catholic faith is the Church, for others the Church is the brick and mortar building, etc....

An now I am supposed to believe, that I should to listen to a theologian or any clergy really on the aspects of morality and christianity when there is all this chaos, and differing of opinions. I always have the feeling that I am supposed to believe that the leaders of the Catholic Church are holier than I am, and have a better understand of God and Christ than I do. And am constantly being told time and again that well you are just looking at things the wrong way and need to be better educated. An I am like really ?

If there are so many actual clergy that are criminals, that have theological accredited degrees ,  If lets say there is an overwhelming majority of Catholics that really feel Pope Francis is a Criminal and unfit to be Pope, and people feel that either vatican I or II is what ever.. Then exactly why shouldn't I listen to my conscience that God gave me and has been guiding me with in making decisions as to when I want to go to mass or not. or even stay in the Church. Let alone believe that the Church can supercede Gods judgement on if God will send me to hell, purgatory , or heaven.

Because from my view point, I am on better footing than a majority of clergy, I discerned a religious life as a priest and as a monk, and I finally was given the chance to become a benedictine monk, and, had i kept my mouth shut, had i just kept smiling and nodding in agreement with everyone where I was, I could have easily hands down taken full vows, and with in 20 some odd years been in a leadership role with in the order I was with and been able to run things in a way I saw better than what was being done.

Instead my life took a different turn, and I couldn't tolerate faking enjoying what was going on in that order and i left. For better or worse I made a tough call in my life, instead of staying and gambling that I could make a better difference in the end, infact im facing poverty head on right now.  Imagine had these actual criminals, had the nerve to step down and out of service the moment they first crossed that line. How much better off they would have been in terms of their eternal soul and how much better the church would have been with out them.


I know not everyone is going to agree with what I think and say , I have taken the long road to figure that out and to not take it personal in an online open forum. And I don't like playing tit for tat, I state what I have to say, If  someone disagrees with me fine. but im not going back and forth and trying to win an arguement that isn't worth the time and drama. I am not trying to persuade anyone. I am merely wanting to be heard.
Peace.....I for one, heard you however have a comment to make if you are prepared to listen also.  Yes, there were a few bad popes doing the cover-ups and what it has come down to, is that P Fr may have to take the brunt of it for all of them.  This is just the way it worked out - under the hand of God and the Bl Mother too!  

It is the devil who likes to turn everything upside down, so it is no wonder that the laity now seem holier than the clergy - that would be a game for the devil and his minions and they fell right into the trap!  Perhaps the laity was suspicious of this and that along the way, but when P Fr came along, really his actions, comments and lack of discipline spoke louder than anything - it reached us laity as a confirmation of the shady goings-on.  I don't know if you read the 11 page letter from the ex-nuncio, but it has very explicit details and exposes several names that he says, need to be interrogated.  

I know several people who did not stay in monasteries and they all had a calling.  However, it is what it is these days and it is in there too!  I believe God will reward those who had to give up their calling because of the road-blocks which go to hell. 

God bless, angeltime :heart:
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#12
Thank you for the reply Angletime, I just had to put out there that im not doing a " debate " or trying to persuade anyone, sometimes i have to say this just to remind myself, because debating and or trying to persuade someone to a different view can just lead to arguing and aggravation. I am afraid i didnt read this Ex-Nuncio, in fact i dont read many books that have been written by theologians, i find the reading to be a bit too theological and for me i find these kinds of writtings to run into a religious babble that only the author and maybe those in that same mind frame really understand.

I do like to read though, big on American History and some poltical stuff now n then, an enjoy fiction here and there,, really big into DC trade paperback books, but that is for another thread.

If our current pope an other religious authors were to write for lack of a better term a more dumbed down level, i'd be more inclined to read, and if these authors really want to reach everyone, they have to write even lower like at an 8th grade or highschool level.

And, I for one,, am not foolish enough to literally think i am on any level of holieness , I do hope that clergy in general don't have this mindset that they are " holy " or are " above everyone else " ... This path we are on to holiness isn't an easy path, that is achieved with a degree or by taking vows. An really is only achieved after we enter heaven. If clergy begin to remember they are shepards first, walking among the sheep that they are leading,,, I think this is something that is easily forgotten once gains any kind of relative power other than being a diocesan priest, i think that the political games take place and are easily corrupted at that point even with the best of intentions and maybe it cant even be avoided.

Thanks and peace.
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#13
(08-26-2018, 10:56 AM)originalscreenname Wrote: Thank you for the reply Angletime, I just had to put out there that im not doing a " debate " or trying to persuade anyone, sometimes i have to say this just to remind myself, because debating and or trying to persuade someone to a different view can just lead to arguing and aggravation. I am afraid i didnt read this Ex-Nuncio, in fact i dont read many books that have been written by theologians, i find the reading to be a bit too theological and for me i find these kinds of writtings to run into a religious babble  that only the author and maybe those in that same mind frame really understand.

I do like to read though, big on American History and some poltical stuff now n then, an enjoy fiction here and there,, really big into DC trade paperback books, but that is for another thread.

If our current pope an other religious authors were to write for lack of a better term a more dumbed down level, i'd be more inclined to read, and if these authors really want to reach everyone, they have to write even lower like at an 8th grade or highschool level.

And, I for one,, am not foolish enough to literally think i am on any level of holieness , I do hope that clergy in general don't have this mindset that they are " holy " or are " above everyone else " ...   This path we are on to holiness isn't an easy path, that is achieved with a degree or by taking vows. An really is only achieved after we enter heaven. If clergy begin to remember they are shepards first, walking among the sheep that they are leading,,, I think this is something that is easily forgotten once gains any kind of relative power other than being a diocesan priest, i think that the political games take place and are easily corrupted at that point even with the best of intentions and maybe it cant even be avoided.

Thanks and peace.
Peace.....well, the Ex-Nuncio isn't a book - it is an 11 page letter that the USA former Nuncio wrote and put out to expose those involved in these scandals but also how P Fr has not followed through on dismissing them in particular, McCarrick.  P Benedict put sanctions on McCarrick and P Fr lifted them.  There is much more in the letter and you can read the letter if you are interested in the details (which is like a confession) by going to Lifesite.com - this is where the complete letter written by the former Nuncio is.  

Yes, I agree about the political games and part of the prob there, is that the Church is too big and not enough supervision.  I have been with nuns who have said quite bluntly, "I don't care what the Pope thinks or wants; he is way over there and I am way over here."  Clearly a lack of respect - this was in the early '90's.  

We will hear different versions of peoples' stories and assessments on what they believe to be happening and this depends on where they are living, the mass they are attending, what they have personally experienced in the higher ranks of the Church or seminary.  So, while both you and I could be legit, we can still have very different thoughts about it all.  I don't think so in this case; we are pretty much on the same page.  

As I said, I can forgive but it does have to be cleaned out.  Victims will have a very difficult time forgiving and forgetting - probably not ever.....

God bless, angeltime :heart:
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#14
(08-26-2018, 10:56 AM)originalscreenname Wrote: Thank you for the reply Angletime, I just had to put out there that im not doing a " debate " or trying to persuade anyone, sometimes i have to say this just to remind myself, because debating and or trying to persuade someone to a different view can just lead to arguing and aggravation. I am afraid i didnt read this Ex-Nuncio, in fact i dont read many books that have been written by theologians, i find the reading to be a bit too theological and for me i find these kinds of writtings to run into a religious babble  that only the author and maybe those in that same mind frame really understand.

I do like to read though, big on American History and some poltical stuff now n then, an enjoy fiction here and there,, really big into DC trade paperback books, but that is for another thread.

If our current pope an other religious authors were to write for lack of a better term a more dumbed down level, i'd be more inclined to read, and if these authors really want to reach everyone, they have to write even lower like at an 8th grade or highschool level.

And, I for one,, am not foolish enough to literally think i am on any level of holieness , I do hope that clergy in general don't have this mindset that they are " holy " or are " above everyone else " ...   This path we are on to holiness isn't an easy path, that is achieved with a degree or by taking vows. An really is only achieved after we enter heaven. If clergy begin to remember they are shepards first, walking among the sheep that they are leading,,, I think this is something that is easily forgotten once gains any kind of relative power other than being a diocesan priest, i think that the political games take place and are easily corrupted at that point even with the best of intentions and maybe it cant even be avoided.

Thanks and peace.
Peace.....forgot to mention - I understand what you mean about reading books - I now prefer books that are from the Apostolic Fathers, Saints themselves or those who were WITH them.  I find too many books and too many varying opinions with authors putting their own slant on it.  As soon as something happens in the news - out comes a movie and a book!  Rubbish!!  We laity are sucking that up like crazy and spending good $ on it!
We are in times now that we need to return to early writings, teachings, documents and ignore a lot of the rest.  God bless, angeltime :heart:
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#15
" I have been with nuns who have said quite bluntly, "I don't care what the Pope thinks or wants; he is way over there and I am way over here." Clearly a lack of respect - this was in the early '90's. "

Oh man Angel, I have always had that exact same frame of mind, well... not in that I don't care what the Pope thinks or wants, it is just he is way over there and I am way over here and so I feel great disconnect, it would be the same if the White House, the Presidency and Congress and Senate were located else where other than the USA.. I mean at least here in the USA and I have written two presidents in my life time, and have gotten a notice back from someone at the White House in regards to my letter, be it from a secretary or an intern, someone recieved my letter an acknowledged that they got it. I doubt that can be said for the Papacy. An maybe fairly so, after all the Papacy is governing a global faith/religion.

Thank you also for the cliff notes in regards to that letter, and Benedict Vs Francis. I got a better understanding now of the actual problem.

But, if frog had wings....

I would suspect there is more to the story than what ever is printed, one has to take into account who wrote a letter, and what was there motivation to do so. Maybe Pope Francis has written down a detailed explenation some where for his decisions it may not excuse the fact that he made a terrible error in judgement but then even if he did, that is beside the point isn't it. ?

It took how many years for a pope to resign from office and how many years since before Pope Benedict ? I do suppose there is with in the vatican a way for a pope to be removed, but if there is , I imagine it is very vague. An it could be there isn't.

Anger is really the only emotion i feel towards this debacle that was supposed to of ended around the death of Saint John Paul II, we as the laylity are literally helpless. With in the Catholic Church, which is a legal state, with a legal head of state. We have no " Constitution, or Bill of Rights " . Yet the papacy the vatican, what do they have ? A police force, a small military and security force for the papacy. probably basic emergency services as well.. Other than that, if those in power choose to abuse that power, be it in secret or publicly, there is nothing we can do. And we have seen we are powerless because calls for individuals to resign have been ignored and noses thumbed at us.

I for one can not abandond ship though, and equate this as others have as a storm, and i relate this idea of a storm to my own personal demons and struggles, even more so in regards to my depression, anxiety, and ptsd, I have come to learn that what I deal with on an emotional and mental level is very much like seasons or a storm, sometimes i can see it coming, other times literally like this morning I was woken up at around 540 am by a sudden strike of overwhelming memories from my past, all negative and it was just one random one after the next and i had to get up and start my day, but just as fast as it hits and as extremely hard as it is to get through I know it will pass, but that is no joy for me personally, no consolation, because i know it will happen again and i have to prepare or be on guard for it to happen again. An try some how to avoid it if possible.

So same with the Church and all the drama, comes and goes, for what ever reason. I just find it extremly aggravating , and unfair, how closed and secretive the Church higherarchy is, our Bishop has recently addressed the issue on our local cable news station, since he is our bishop for our diocese of Pensacola-Tallahassee,, which is great, all good, but the problem is, I personally, still have no clue what our diocese policy is and how they treat a criminal act that has taken place in their charge be it related to this or some thing that isnt criminal but scandalous.

An I am not suggesting that The Roman Catholic Church stop being Monarchy, but to at the very least take accountablity like other nations have that still have kings and queens, they still have a judicial system and still have a rule of law and still have people being held accountable for their actions and even have legal means to address their leaders. Now here is the kicker, even in third world nightmare dictatorships like Cuba, or a country like Russia, or Venezula ,they at the very least pander to their people and give them the feeling of voting, it is rigged worse than anything under the sun but they at least pretend ! We cant get even that.

And back in the ages when Kings and Queens ruled in that manner, it literally took an armed revolt to make a change in leadership, and we just cant have that.

But we have no idea how our Pope is even elected , all we know is a bunch of Cardinals from all over the world gather, go into a room that is locked, supposedly they have cots n such inside an stuff to keep cozy until they make a decision on who to elect. Now personally I wouldnt care if they threw chicken bones and sang a song or played a card game to declare who the next Pope is, what in the world is the harm in letting people know the process ? because if the idea is that well if they know then some how it can be influenced, well all one needs to know is who is a cardinal with in the church and who would be on the election committee or what ever it is called, and they can spend years trying to influence said people. So it isn't like the process now is bullet proof.

That and the Vatican has a library that can only be accessed by special permission and only by people with a reason to gain access be it to write something for the pope or what ever... Exactly why is that ? you mean to tell me they cant create more jobs by having proper security to monitor people accessing what ever is in the library, have a fee to access it which would draw in much needed revenue, have people have some kind of id that the pentagon uses to gain access into their building , and call it a day .... why is that so hard ? Why disconnect people from a trove of Catholic history, now im not saying let them take it home an have a fun read, but im just talking about anyone who wants access, allow them to have limited access and charge them.

The Catholic Church is sadly still operating in a very stonage way and it is only making things harder than they need to be.

I don't like it, but there ya go, do I jump ship, I just can't. An not so much out of obligation , which having that word hang over my head aggravates me to no end as well, but out of the fact that I care for Christ and I appreciate the sacraments.

Cheers
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#16
From the Code of Canon Law;

 Can.  1404 The First See is judged by no one.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P5A.HTM
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#17
(08-27-2018, 09:46 AM)Poche Wrote: From the Code of Canon Law;

 Can.  1404 The First See is judged by no one.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P5A.HTM
Peace.....As Cardinal Burke said in an interview, the College of Cardinals is there to call the Pope to the carpet if need be - if fact they take a vow to uphold the faith no matter what and no matter who - even if there is a large enough group of laity, they can do something about a Pope in question.  I sense that a lot of people will not be attending his events and visits or really bother with him and that will give him a message.  Even though at this time, it was only the Ex-Nuncio who put out a letter, it may encourage others to do so.   This is the info I have.

God bless, angeltime :heart:
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#18
(08-27-2018, 09:46 AM)Poche Wrote: From the Code of Canon Law;

 Can.  1404 The First See is judged by no one.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P5A.HTM

Only in the context of canonical trials; it has no affect on criminal trials brought on by the state. Nor in the Court of Public Opinion.

Regardless, Can. 1404 says nothing about the Second See.

Keep holding Bergoglio's feet to the fire.  Truth will prevail.
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#19
The latest from Raymond Arroyo, and the World Over is still to come

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#20
A few hours ago in Rome, after Bergoglio's Wednesday address, the crowd began chanting, "Viganò, Viganò, Viganò....."  Vatican media tv broadcasted it live.  Someone on FB posted the video, but I can't find any direct link to it.  

Keep his feet to the fire.
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