American Circumcision
A bull in a China shop can work sometimes. That technique has its place. But I think it's best that when you're trying to convince someone of something so emotional--like why circumcision is a bad idea--to realize most people in the West have a very personal stake or involvement in the subject that hits too painfully close to home. So telling people flat out that in circumcising their precious babies they've either ruined the lives of their male children, or at very least lessoned their enjoyment of conjugal act isn't gonna work. It's probably either going to make them think you're ridiculous, hurt them, or make them mad. 

It's always best to start off by extolling the virtues of the benefits of the thing you're trying to promote. Then listen to the response. Really see if you understand what they're trying to say by repeating it back to them in their own words. Then suggest what they might want to consider. I really think we have a better opportunity of getting people on board with whatever it is we're promoting that way.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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(01-16-2019, 09:38 AM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote: A bull in a China shop can work sometimes. That technique has its place. But I think it's best that when you're trying to convince someone of something so emotional--like why circumcision is a bad idea--to realize most people in the West have a very personal stake or involvement in the subject that hits too painfully close to home. So telling people flat out that in circumcising their precious babies they've either ruined the lives of their male children, or at very least lessoned their enjoyment of conjugal act isn't gonna work. It's probably either going to make them think you're ridiculous, hurt them, or make them mad. 

It's always best to start off by extolling the virtues of the benefits of the thing you're trying to promote. Then listen to the response. Really see if you understand what they're trying to say by repeating it back to them in their own words. Then suggest what they might want to consider. I really think we have a better opportunity of getting people on board with whatever it is we're promoting that way.

Good advice.
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Regarding CatholicWoman's assertion that what Melkite cited was just one priest's opinion, I think she had no idea that Melkites argument, as far that goes, actually does have a strong basis in Catholic history and practice. 

I know CatholicWoman is now gone, but as Melkite cited, there is plenty of justification for Catholic opposition to circumcision.

Melkite, check out these resources if you have not already.  

In case the abrogation of this covenant was not obvious enough from Holy Scripture, the Church has multiple times reasserted, and very vigorously, that the religious ritual of circumcision is forbidden. It is one of those observances of the Old Law which is “both dead and deadly” according to the Church, which declared in the Council of Florence that,

All, therefore, who after that time [that is “after the promulgation of the Gospel”] observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the [Mosaic] law, it [The Catholic Church] declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors.” (Denz. 712)


......There are Catholic moralists, like Father John J. DietzenDr. David Lang, and (in the 1950’s) Father Edwin F. Healy, S.J., who teach that elective male infant circumcision not only violates the proper application of the time-honored principle of totality, but even fits the ethical definition of mutilation, which is gravely sinful. Indeed, if what we are talking about is a procedure that removes healthy tissue without any therapeutic reason at all, with only questionable (at best) or spurious prophylactic justifications, and that has serious risks of its own — including complications like hemorrhage, infection, ulceration, partial or total disfigurement, and even death — then there is overwhelming evidence to suggest that Catholic moral principles would oppose it.

Information on the issue abounds. Besides Catholics against Circumcision, whom I contacted while doing my own research, there are organizations like Doctors Opposing CircumcisionMothers against Circumcision, and the National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centers. There are also books on the subject like Marked in Your Flesh: Circumcision from Ancient Judea to Modern Americaby Leonard B. Glick, What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Circumcision by Paul M. Fleiss and Frederick Hodges, and Circumcision, The Hidden Trauma by Ronald Goldman.


https://catholicism.org/ad-rem-no-283.html

This article was helpful:

As Fr. Manuel de Almeida, an assistant to Bishop Mendes, wrote at the time:

“It will be apparent from this how many souls have lost Heaven through this error in the course of so many hundreds of years. Today, after they have received the holy Roman faith, one of the things they cannot be persuaded to do is to abandon circumcision. They say they do not do it to keep the law of Moses but only for elegance. Great folly or blindness!” (Some Records of Ethiopia, 1593-1646, P. 62) 

Thus, the Church pronounced at the Council of Salzburg-Vienna (1267):

“Canon XVIII. Christians may not be enticed into Judaism, nor may they be circumcised for any reason.”

The very small justifiable rationale for circumcision was given by Pius XII.

As Pope Pius XII declared in 1952:


[b]“From a moral point of view, circumcision is permissible if, in accordance with therapeutic principles, it prevents a disease that cannot be countered in any other way.” (Discourses & Radio Messages of His Holiness Pius XII, Volume XIV, 2 March 1952-1 March 1953)[/b]

In America, even in 1956, the concept of routine infant circumcision among Catholics was still largely a strange and new phenomenon, though one the Church clearly opposed, as Fr. Edwin Healy shows in his comments about it in his book, Medical Ethics:


[b]“Circumcision of Newborn Males, Case 55 – “Dr. J makes it a practice to circumcise all male infants shortly after birth.  He says that this is merely routine procedure and that it is recommended by most competent physicians.  Solution: [b]Unless there is a positive indication for circumcision, the operation should be omitted… Some physicians, it seems, circumcise all male infants, and their motive appears to be mercenary.  Such physicians act in a manner unworthy of their high calling.”  (Medical Ethics, Fr. Edwin F. Healy, SJ, Loyola University Press, Chicago 1956, P. 128-129)[/b][/b]

https://guggiedaly.blogspot.com/2014/05/...mcise.html
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(01-16-2019, 09:38 AM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote: A bull in a China shop can work sometimes. That technique has its place. But I think it's best that when you're trying to convince someone of something so emotional--like why circumcision is a bad idea--to realize most people in the West have a very personal stake or involvement in the subject that hits too painfully close to home. So telling people flat out that in circumcising their precious babies they've either ruined the lives of their male children, or at very least lessoned their enjoyment of conjugal act isn't gonna work. It's probably either going to make them think you're ridiculous, hurt them, or make them mad. 

It's always best to start off by extolling the virtues of the benefits of the thing you're trying to promote. Then listen to the response. Really see if you understand what they're trying to say by repeating it back to them in their own words. Then suggest what they might want to consider. I really think we have a better opportunity of getting people on board with whatever it is we're promoting that way.

That's very rational advice which, unfortunately, I think works better in theory than in practice.  Of course, the bull in a china shop isn't winning tons of people over either.  But I've been talking to people about this for almost 20 years.  (It's a lot easier to take the bull in a china shop path online than it is in person, so there's that).  In my experience, you can present the facts from a friendly, neutral, non-pushy or non-emotional position all day long, but the majority of people who aren't already suspicious that circumcision may be bad are more likely to take that tact as confirmation that it's perfectly acceptable for them to circumcise if they choose to do so.

I don't know that I've convinced anybody with the bull in china shop routine, and I do worry that maybe I'm scaring people away who might otherwise be open to considering it, but my hope is that, if someone is going to think I'm crazy (which most do even if I'm polite and calm about the topic) anyway, might as well show them some of the crazy that goes on in my head because I've been circumcised.  And hopefully, if they can't see that circumcision is bad in its own right, maybe they'll at least link my crazy with circumcision and not want their sons to end up like me.

Some people respond to reason. Others only respond to fear.
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(01-16-2019, 10:47 AM)BC Wrote: Regarding CatholicWoman's assertion that what Melkite cited was just one priest's opinion, I think she had no idea that Melkites argument, as far that goes, actually does have a strong basis in Catholic history and practice. 

I know CatholicWoman is now gone, but as Melkite cited, there is plenty of justification for Catholic opposition to circumcision.

Melkite, check out these resources if you have not already.  

In case the abrogation of this covenant was not obvious enough from Holy Scripture, the Church has multiple times reasserted, and very vigorously, that the religious ritual of circumcision is forbidden. It is one of those observances of the Old Law which is “both dead and deadly” according to the Church, which declared in the Council of Florence that,

All, therefore, who after that time [that is “after the promulgation of the Gospel”] observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the [Mosaic] law, it [The Catholic Church] declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors.” (Denz. 712)


......There are Catholic moralists, like Father John J. DietzenDr. David Lang, and (in the 1950’s) Father Edwin F. Healy, S.J., who teach that elective male infant circumcision not only violates the proper application of the time-honored principle of totality, but even fits the ethical definition of mutilation, which is gravely sinful. Indeed, if what we are talking about is a procedure that removes healthy tissue without any therapeutic reason at all, with only questionable (at best) or spurious prophylactic justifications, and that has serious risks of its own — including complications like hemorrhage, infection, ulceration, partial or total disfigurement, and even death — then there is overwhelming evidence to suggest that Catholic moral principles would oppose it.

Information on the issue abounds. Besides Catholics against Circumcision, whom I contacted while doing my own research, there are organizations like Doctors Opposing CircumcisionMothers against Circumcision, and the National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centers. There are also books on the subject like Marked in Your Flesh: Circumcision from Ancient Judea to Modern Americaby Leonard B. Glick, What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Circumcision by Paul M. Fleiss and Frederick Hodges, and Circumcision, The Hidden Trauma by Ronald Goldman.


https://catholicism.org/ad-rem-no-283.html

This article was helpful:

As Fr. Manuel de Almeida, an assistant to Bishop Mendes, wrote at the time:

“It will be apparent from this how many souls have lost Heaven through this error in the course of so many hundreds of years. Today, after they have received the holy Roman faith, one of the things they cannot be persuaded to do is to abandon circumcision. They say they do not do it to keep the law of Moses but only for elegance. Great folly or blindness!” (Some Records of Ethiopia, 1593-1646, P. 62) 

Thus, the Church pronounced at the Council of Salzburg-Vienna (1267):

“Canon XVIII. Christians may not be enticed into Judaism, nor may they be circumcised for any reason.”

The very small justifiable rationale for circumcision was given by Pius XII.

As Pope Pius XII declared in 1952:


[b]“From a moral point of view, circumcision is permissible if, in accordance with therapeutic principles, it prevents a disease that cannot be countered in any other way.” (Discourses & Radio Messages of His Holiness Pius XII, Volume XIV, 2 March 1952-1 March 1953)[/b]

In America, even in 1956, the concept of routine infant circumcision among Catholics was still largely a strange and new phenomenon, though one the Church clearly opposed, as Fr. Edwin Healy shows in his comments about it in his book, Medical Ethics:


[b]“Circumcision of Newborn Males, Case 55 – “Dr. J makes it a practice to circumcise all male infants shortly after birth.  He says that this is merely routine procedure and that it is recommended by most competent physicians.  Solution: [b]Unless there is a positive indication for circumcision, the operation should be omitted… Some physicians, it seems, circumcise all male infants, and their motive appears to be mercenary.  Such physicians act in a manner unworthy of their high calling.”  (Medical Ethics, Fr. Edwin F. Healy, SJ, Loyola University Press, Chicago 1956, P. 128-129)[/b][/b]

https://guggiedaly.blogspot.com/2014/05/...mcise.html
That's a great post. I think the issue is the incivility of the posts. There is much to be desired in the approach as they were scorching and honestly not what one would expect on a Catholic forum. I don't blame CatholicWoman one bit.

Ephesians 4:32

And be ye kind to one another; merciful, forgiving one another, even as God hath forgiven you in Christ.

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"The Eucharist is the Sacrament of Love; it signifies love, It produces love. The Eucharist is the consummation of the whole spiritual life." -St. Thomas Aquinas

“To be tempted is a sign that the soul is very pleasing to the Lord.” St. Padre Pio
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(01-16-2019, 11:12 AM)SeeTheLight Wrote: That's a great post. I think the issue is the incivility of the posts. There is much to be desired in the approach as they were scorching and honestly not what one would expect on a Catholic forum. I don't blame CatholicWoman one bit.

Ephesians 4:32

And be ye kind to one another; merciful, forgiving one another, even as God hath forgiven you in Christ.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Yeah, that was/is the issue. Melkite knows he was being not civil and apologized.  

The guy is passionate.

Hopefully, CatholicWoman will come back.
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(01-16-2019, 10:10 AM)In His Love Wrote: Good advice.

Hy IHL!

you back..?
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(01-16-2019, 01:07 PM)BC Wrote:
(01-16-2019, 10:10 AM)In His Love Wrote: Good advice.

Hy IHL!

you back..?
Hey, BC! 

Probably not. I stopped by to say hi and reply to well wishers in the Pig Roast thread Jeeter made, and then I saw some truly ugly thread posts elsewhere on FE. I don't want to get bogged down in some of this stuff.
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(01-16-2019, 11:02 AM)Melkite. Wrote: I don't know that I've convinced anybody with the bull in china shop routine, and I do worry that maybe I'm scaring people away who might otherwise be open to considering it, but my hope is that, if someone is going to think I'm crazy (which most do even if I'm polite and calm about the topic) anyway, might as well show them some of the crazy that goes on in my head because I've been circumcised.  And hopefully, if they can't see that circumcision is bad in its own right, maybe they'll at least link my crazy with circumcision and not want their sons to end up like me.

Some people respond to reason.  Others only respond to fear.

I'm seeing what you mean, thanks.
 
---------------

THE CIRCUMCISION REFERENCE LIBRARY

Marc Saperstein. Decoding the Rabbis: A Thirteenth-Century Commentary on the Aggadah. 

[CIRP Note: Rabbi Isaac ben Yedaiah, who lived in Southern France in the late 13th century, explained why he considered circumcision to be advised for the Jewish male.]

A quotation from Rabbi Isaac ben Yedaiah of Southern France, late 13th century--

         A man uncircumcised in the flesh desires to lie with a beautiful-looking woman who speaks seductively to attract him. He vexes his mind to be with her day after day, growing weary in his attempt to fulfil his desire through lovemaking with her.
         She too will court the man who is uncircumcised in the flesh and lie against his breast with great passion, for he thrusts inside her a long time because of his foreskin, which is a barrier against ejaculation in intercourse. Thus she feels pleasure and reaches an orgasm first. When an uncircumcised man sleeps with her, and then resolves to return to his home, she brazenly grabs him, holding on to his genitals and says to him, "Come back, make love to me." This is because of the pleasure that she finds in intercourse with him, from the sinews of his testicles—sinew of iron—and from his ejaculation—that of a horse which he shoots like an arrow into her womb. They are united without separating, and he makes love twice and three times in one night, yet the appetite is not filled.
         And so he acts with her night after night. The sexual activity emaciates him of his bodily fat, and afflicts his flesh, and he devotes his brain entirely to women, an evil thing. His heart dies within him; between her legs he sinks and falls. He is unable to see the light of the King's face, because the eyes of the intellect are plastered over by women so that they cannot now see light.
         But when a circumcised man desires the beauty of a woman, and cleaves to his wife, or to another woman comely in appearance, he will find himself performing his task quickly, emitting his seed as soon as he inserts his crown. If he lies with her once, he sleeps satisfied, and will not know her again for another seven days. This is the way a circumcised man acts time after time with the woman he loves. He has an orgasm first; he does not hold back his strength. As soon as he begins intercourse, he immediately comes to a climax.
         She has no pleasure from him when she lies down on when she arises, and it would be better for her if he had not known her and not drawn near to her, for he arouses her passsion to no avail, and she remains in a state of desire for her husband, ashamed and confounded, while the seed is still in her "reservoir." She does not have an orgasm once a year except on rare occasions, because of the great heat and the fire burning within her. Thus he who says "I am the Lord's" will not empty his brain because of his wife or the wife of his friend. He will find grace and good favor; his heart will be strong to seek out God. he will not fear to behold that which is beyond, and when He speaks to him, he will not turn away.


http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/yedaiah1/

---------------
So I suppose... circumcision has removed us from the physical realm and into the intellectual realm, (which is one of the wonders of celibacy), it had also ushered in Western Patriarchy, freeing men from women, so they may see the face of the King, see what I mean. God knows.
Oh, where are the snows of yesteryear!
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(02-05-2019, 03:19 AM)Blind Horus Wrote: ---------------
So I suppose... circumcision has removed us from the physical realm and into the intellectual realm, (which is one of the wonders of celibacy), it had also ushered in Western Patriarchy, freeing men from women, so they may see the face of the King, see what I mean. God knows.

"Us"? Sounds like it left women frustrated, "ashamed and confounded" (and likely with abraded vaginas if their husbands lasted for any length of time). Besides which, we're not dualists, and we don't do evil so a good might come from it.
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