American Circumcision
#41
(01-14-2019, 07:23 AM)austenbosten Wrote:
(01-13-2019, 11:27 PM)Melkite Wrote: Oh, I'm sure I'd get screamed and hollered at, just like I would by the feminists that scream and holler at us for having the audacity to compare FGM to circumcision, thereby supposedly hijacking the conversation they deigned was only supposed to be about women.  

Those are a lot of scare statistics you've got there.  How many rapes actually result in HIV, other stds and pregnancies?  If one of the rare instances of rape result in something permanently and irreversibly bad, yeah, I'll concede that that is equally bad to circumcision.  The majority of rapes are not, and I'm willing to die on that hill.

In order to get sympathy you've got to give it.  You have a right to your opinion on the circumcision issue, but your entire delivery of it, beginning years ago, has been stupid and insensitive.

Rape is not a feminist thing Melkite, men get raped as well and I'm sure they would beat your *ss for saying something so asinine.  Your claim that circumcision is worst or at least similar to rape is one of the most outrageous and insensitive things said on here.

I don't need your sympathy, you need mine, and many others, if you wish to overturn this century-long practice; and making outrageous emotional remarks, making stupid comparisons, and using backwards logic is not going to win anyone over to your side.

Agreed. Can't win any support through insults and lack of facts, evidence and logic.
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#42
(01-14-2019, 10:22 AM)SeeTheLight Wrote: So sorry you have to deal with this CatholicWoman.

All I have to say is God is love and the world is unfortunately lacking in this age.

God Bless

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Thank you so much dear! So nice to read a friendly comment! You stated that so wonderfully.  I agree 100%.  :heart:
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#43
(01-14-2019, 10:23 AM)austenbosten Wrote: It's not, and others on here have said so.  

You cannot compare an event that millions of "victims", as you are wont of saying, have endured, which none have any cognitive memory of, and most are not upset over, to an event that most remember and suffer from PTSD and are universally upset over and call that logical.

And you aren't even comparing, you are saying one is worse than the other.

Others saying so doesn't make it so.

Plenty of men suffer from PTSD (or PTSD like) symptoms from their circumcision.  I'm sure it is a small minority, but it happens.  Bodies can remember things that the conscious mind blocks out.  My earliest dream memory was very clearly me processing my circumcision, when I was too young to even know what circumcision was or that it was a thing.

You kind of defeat your own argument about logic.  You've basically said my feelings are illogical.  For the sake of argument, let's say that's true.  If it is, that means my own feelings on what was done to me are not valid merely because I feel them, but are dependent upon someone else's subjective recognition of them as valid in order to be so.  If that's the case, then everything a rape victim feels about their rape is also not valid because the victim feels it, but is dependent upon someone else acknowledging it.  If I said their feelings were invalid - POOF! - they're being illogical.
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#44
(01-14-2019, 10:59 AM)Melkite Wrote:
(01-14-2019, 10:23 AM)austenbosten Wrote: It's not, and others on here have said so.  

You cannot compare an event that millions of "victims", as you are wont of saying, have endured, which none have any cognitive memory of, and most are not upset over, to an event that most remember and suffer from PTSD and are universally upset over and call that logical.

And you aren't even comparing, you are saying one is worse than the other.

Others saying so doesn't make it so.

Plenty of men suffer from PTSD (or PTSD like) symptoms from their circumcision.  I'm sure it is a small minority, but it happens.  Bodies can remember things that the conscious mind blocks out.  My earliest dream memory was very clearly me processing my circumcision, when I was too young to even know what circumcision was or that it was a thing.

You kind of defeat your own argument about logic.  You've basically said my feelings are illogical.  For the sake of argument, let's say that's true.  If it is, that means my own feelings on what was done to me are not valid merely because I feel them, but are dependent upon someone else's subjective recognition of them as valid in order to be so.  If that's the case, then everything a rape victim feels about their rape is also not valid because the victim feels it, but is dependent upon someone else acknowledging it.  If I said their feelings were invalid - POOF! - they're being illogical.
 
That's not really how memory works. It sounds more like the subconscious mind trying to process current fears through dreams. Childhood amnesia occurs around the age of 2 or 3. It is very rare to remember events before the age of 3. To remember something from a person's birth is pretty much impossible. 

Now that's not to say you aren't having dreams about this. I'm just saying it's not infant memory, rather your mind trying to work out current issues it struggles with. 

Have you tried talking to a priest about all this? Perhaps he may be able to help you.
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#45
(01-14-2019, 10:27 AM)CatholicWoman Wrote: Agreed. Can't win any support through insults and lack of facts, evidence and logic.

Until the 1990's, if any anesthetic was used at all, it was a topical ointment which does virtually nothing to stop the pain of being circumcised.

Today, about 60% of hospital circumcisions still don't use a local anesthetic.

The foreskin adheres to the head of the penis, so this membrane must be separated.  The main vein must be clamped, and then the whole foreskin is pulled through a plate to crush the foreskin to prevent blood loss before it is cut off.  It is not a simple "snip of skin" as you put it.

Over half of the outer penile skin is amputated in circumcision and, depending on style, 50-90% of inner foreskin membrane as well.

There are entire sensations that a circumcised man is incapable of experiencing because 100% of the nerve endings that cause those sensations are found in the foreskin.

Circumcision, depending on style, removes between 10 and 20 thousand erogenous nerve endings.

Circumcision removes the most sensitive parts of the penis and, in those parts that remain on a circumcised penis, they are less sensitive than their intact counterpart.

The United States has the highest rates of HIV, STDs and penile cancer in the Western world, yet we are the only majority circumcised country in the Western world.

These facts can be found on at websites like CIRP or NOCIRC, with the links to relevant studies.

The main counterpoints come from the AAP.  The studies they use as their evidence have been found to be unreplicable by other Western nations.  Medical organizations in the Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Norway and Australia have condemned the AAP's stance on circumcision as based primarily on cultural bias and to be scientifically untenable.

It is no longer possible to have a comprehensive, fact-based position that favors circumcision.
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#46
(01-14-2019, 11:17 AM)Melkite Wrote:
(01-14-2019, 10:27 AM)CatholicWoman Wrote: Agreed. Can't win any support through insults and lack of facts, evidence and logic.

Until the 1990's, if any anesthetic was used at all, it was a topical ointment which does virtually nothing to stop the pain of being circumcised.

Today, about 60% of hospital circumcisions still don't use a local anesthetic.

The foreskin adheres to the head of the penis, so this membrane must be separated.  The main vein must be clamped, and then the whole foreskin is pulled through a plate to crush the foreskin to prevent blood loss before it is cut off.  It is not a simple "snip of skin" as you put it.

Over half of the outer penile skin is amputated in circumcision and, depending on style, 50-90% of inner foreskin membrane as well.

There are entire sensations that a circumcised man is incapable of experiencing because 100% of the nerve endings that cause those sensations are found in the foreskin.

Circumcision, depending on style, removes between 10 and 20 thousand erogenous nerve endings.

Circumcision removes the most sensitive parts of the penis and, in those parts that remain on a circumcised penis, they are less sensitive than their intact counterpart.

The United States has the highest rates of HIV, STDs and penile cancer in the Western world, yet we are the only majority circumcised country in the Western world.

These facts can be found on at websites like CIRP or NOCIRC, with the links to relevant studies.

The main counterpoints come from the AAP.  The studies they use as their evidence have been found to be unreplicable by other Western nations.  Medical organizations in the Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Norway and Australia have condemned the AAP's stance on circumcision as based primarily on cultural bias and to be scientifically untenable.

It is no longer possible to have a comprehensive, fact-based position that favors circumcision.

What was the point of this post? Also, the U.S. does not have the highest rates of HIV rate. Many, many countries have higher HIV and STDs rates...

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/coun...-aids.html

Why are you so obsessed with penises? I really am curious. And I really do hope you talk to a priest.
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#47
(01-14-2019, 11:13 AM)CatholicWoman Wrote:  
That's not really how memory works. It sounds more like the subconscious mind trying to process current fears through dreams. Childhood amnesia occurs around the age of 2 or 3. It is very rare to remember events before the age of 3. To remember something from a person's birth is pretty much impossible. 

Now that's not to say you aren't having dreams about this. I'm just saying it's not infant memory, rather your mind trying to work out current issues it struggles with. 

Have you tried talking to a priest about all this? Perhaps he may be able to help you.

I had the dream when I was no older than 4, but I believe I was closer to three based on where I lived when I had the dream.  My family moved away from there when I was 3.

I dreamt that I was at a drive-in movie theater and I was walking by myself between the rows of cars.  Two men approached me and pulled their penises out.  They looked like circumcised penises (which is all I would have known at the time).  As they pulled their penises out, one of those cup holders that you would hang from the car window floated over to the men.  The cone portion hovered in front of them and then went over the heads of their penises.  Skin from the shaft was drawn over the cone and cut off.  I remember "knowing," in that dream sense of knowing, that these men did not like what was happening and felt helpless about it.

Nothing was spoken.  The entire dream was non-verbal.  I didn't find out about circumcision was until I was about 10 years old.

Tell me, if not circumcision, what on earth could this dream have been processing?

Not dream related, I remember as a young child, whenever I took a bath, I would try to force the head of my penis up inside the skin and hold it there.  Since then, I have heard other men recounting doing the same thing.  I'm not as certain that that is circumcision related as it is just being a young boy and exploring your body.  But I think it's interesting that there is some kind of awareness there on some level that the penis head is supposed to be covered by skin.
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#48
(01-14-2019, 11:29 AM)CatholicWoman Wrote: What was the point of this post? Also, the U.S. does not have the highest rates of HIV rate. Many, many countries have higher HIV and STDs rates...

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/coun...-aids.html

You said I wasn't using facts.  I was listing facts for you.

Also, I didn't say we had the highest HIV rates in the whole world.  I said the Western world, since those countries are the ones that are going to have a similar standard of living, longevity and health care, so those are the ones that you can make a good comparison.  All of these other Western countries are majority uncircumcised, and their HIV rates are significantly lower than ours (proportionately, not just raw numbers).  Same with STDs and penile cancer.  It completely disproves that circumcision is advantageous from a health perspective in Western nations.
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#49
(01-14-2019, 11:33 AM)Melkite Wrote:
(01-14-2019, 11:13 AM)CatholicWoman Wrote:  
That's not really how memory works. It sounds more like the subconscious mind trying to process current fears through dreams. Childhood amnesia occurs around the age of 2 or 3. It is very rare to remember events before the age of 3. To remember something from a person's birth is pretty much impossible. 

Now that's not to say you aren't having dreams about this. I'm just saying it's not infant memory, rather your mind trying to work out current issues it struggles with. 

Have you tried talking to a priest about all this? Perhaps he may be able to help you.

I had the dream when I was no older than 4, but I believe I was closer to three based on where I lived when I had the dream.  My family moved away from there when I was 3.

I dreamt that I was at a drive-in movie theater and I was walking by myself between the rows of cars.  Two men approached me and pulled their penises out.  They looked like circumcised penises (which is all I would have known at the time).  As they pulled their penises out, one of those cup holders that you would hang from the car window floated over to the men.  The cone portion hovered in front of them and then went over the heads of their penises.  Skin from the shaft was drawn over the cone and cut off.  I remember "knowing," in that dream sense of knowing, that these men did not like what was happening and felt helpless about it.

Nothing was spoken.  The entire dream was non-verbal.  I didn't find out about circumcision was until I was about 10 years old.

Tell me, if not circumcision, what on earth could this dream have been processing?

Not dream related, I remember as a young child, whenever I took a bath, I would try to force the head of my penis up inside the skin and hold it there.  Since then, I have heard other men recounting doing the same thing.  I'm not as certain that that is circumcision related as it is just being a young boy and exploring your body.  But I think it's interesting that there is some kind of awareness there on some level that the penis head is supposed to be covered by skin.

It sounds like there is a lot more to that dream than the concept of circumsicion. Have you ever talked to a priest or therapist about these things? I really do hope you can get this all sorted and have peace of mind and peace with God. I wish you the best, but I'm afraid the answers  and healing you are looking for will not be found on this forum.
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#50
(01-14-2019, 11:43 AM)CatholicWoman Wrote: It sounds like there is a lot more to that dream than the concept of circumsicion. Have you ever talked to a priest or therapist about these things? I really do hope you can get this all sorted and have peace of mind and peace with God. I wish you the best, but I'm afraid the answers  and healing you are looking for will not be found on this forum.

I have.  They just assumed I must have been molested as a very young child.  Which I guess is technically possible (certain if we're counting my circumcision).  But if something did happen, I've completely blocked it out, and I'm not able to think of anyone my parents knew at the time that it could have been, or would have had the opportunity to be.

It's insulting to present a very real sexual trauma with multiple details that strongly match the details of the dream, but for the actual trauma to be dismissed and be told the cause is probably something else that likely never happened (not you, the priests and therapists).
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