The Meaning of 1 Timothy 4:1-5
#1
1 Timothy 4 New International Version (NIV)

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.


Upon reading this text, two things immediately come to mind

1)  "They forbid people to marry" --> I immediately think of Catholic Priests and Nuns.
2) "order them to abstain from certain foods" --> I immediately think of no meat on Fridays

I am wondering and very concerned is  1 Timothy 4  a ~1500 year prophesy about the Roman Catholic Church?
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#2
Your problem seems to be the usual protestant lack of historical context, which is manifest in biblical translations which also lack historical context.

Here, he "speaks of the Gnostics, the Marcionites, the Eneratites, the Manicheans, and other ancient heretics, who absolutely condemned marriage, and the use of all kind of meat; because they pretended that all flesh was from an evil principle. Whereas the church of God, so far from condemning marriage, holds it a holy sacrament; and forbids it to none but such as by vow have chosen the better part: and prohibits not the use of any meats whatsoever in proper times and seasons; though she does not judge all kind of diet proper for days of fasting and penance." (Douay-Rheims, DRBO.org)

The Catholic Church does not absolutely prohibit marriage and there is no absolute abstinence.  In this, he condemns those who do these things because they think flesh is evil: "For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer."  For those religious who do remain celibate, and for the days of abstinence from meat, the Church does not do this because they are evil.  And St. Paul himself preaches the superiority of celibacy (1 Corinthians); why would he contradict himself if 1 Timothy is to be interpreted as you suggest?  The answer: he wouldn't, and he doesn't.

The other issue protestants seem to suffer from is pride and narcissism, that they know or have discovered something that no one else in 2000 years has thought of.  The greatest philosophers and theologians in Western Civilization explored these questions over 1000 years before the first protestant was born. 

So, thanks for trolling, but no, this is not a prophecy about the RCC.
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#3
After 1 Timothy 4: 1:5 is verse 1 Timothy 4:6 which state:

"6 If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed."

I am trying to follow the word of God by pointing these things out, not to be prideful, narcissistic or a troll as you have falsely accused me.  

I do not believe Paul is referring to these  Gnostics, the Marcionites, the Eneratites, the Manicheans, which are ancient beliefs, as Paul says in "later times some will abandon the [Christian] faith".

Paul also wrote that "They [will] forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods".   There is no indication made by Paul as to whether they will forbid some or all people to marry.   Likewise Paul does not indicate the extent of abstinence from food, which is ordered.     To me it seems clear that the problem Paul is addressing is not celibacy or fasting (whether it is "absolute" or not), but the forcing of such things from leadership and those who teach.  

Paul's words here remind us that as followers of Christ we should not have a blanket trust of our leaders and teachers.   We should examine what they are teaching against what the Sacred Scriptures say.  

I would like to conclude on what is written in 2 Peter 1: 20-21

"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."
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#4
You ignored the 1 Corinthians reference, willfully it seems. I think 1 Corinthians 7:6-8 and 7:32-35 pretty much cover it if you want to go the Sola Scriptura route.
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#5
If the Church is wrong in its interpretation of these verses, how do you know that it got it right in saying 1 Timothy is part of Scripture?
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#6
(09-24-2018, 01:58 AM)Paul Wrote: If the Church is wrong in its interpretation of these verses, how do you know that it got it right in saying 1 Timothy is part of Scripture?

Excellent catch, Paul! Spot on! That's the weak spot of the prot heretics 'sola scriptura'. Where did the Bible come from? The Catholic Church.
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#7
(09-23-2018, 06:36 PM)crotalus97 Wrote: New International Version (NIV)

Well, there's problem number one. You're using a horrifically flawed translation of Scripture. Even if we had the power to interpret it on our own (which we don't, see Acts 8.30-31), if it is badly flawed, then how can we guarantee a correct outcome : the GIGO principle.

(09-23-2018, 09:21 PM)crotalus97 Wrote: I do not believe Paul is referring to these  Gnostics, the Marcionites, the Eneratites, the Manicheans, which are ancient beliefs, as Paul says in "later times some will abandon the [Christian] faith".

And the good knight does, so who's right? (Cf Acts 8.30-31)

Seems like we need someone who has some authority to adjudicate that one. And if that guy who makes that decision hope to have some authority to do so he is going to have to be sent by the authority God has establish to solve such issues and that sending needs to be clear, so he needs some official charge to speak for the Holy Spirit so we can all know that he's not just making it all up (Rom. 10.15).

(09-23-2018, 09:21 PM)crotalus97 Wrote: There is no indication made by Paul as to whether they will forbid some or all people to marry. Likewise Paul does not indicate the extent of abstinence from food, which is ordered. To me it seems clear that the problem Paul is addressing is not celibacy or fasting (whether it is "absolute" or not), but the forcing of such things from leadership and those who teach.

Plenty of people are forbidden to marry, and there's nothing wrong. Jesus himself said you can't marry if you're already married, for instance.

No one forces people not to eat. It's not like Friday for a Catholic is some medieval torture chamber, where we force only fish down the gullets of poor Catholics, because they MUST NOT EAT MEAT!

They can choose to disobey what the Church wants. If they do it's sinful, because the Church is the organ established by God to guide the faithful to heaven, and has that authority.

Also certain mandatory fasting and abstinence come from the Apostles (and were commanded by Christ) as is plainly evident.

(09-23-2018, 09:21 PM)crotalus97 Wrote: Paul's words here remind us that as followers of Christ we should not have a blanket trust of our leaders and teachers. We should examine what they are teaching against what the Sacred Scriptures say.

Were does the Bible say that we get to be the judge of others? Where do it say we get to interpret Scripture ourselves and teach our teachers?

Kind of an odd system you propose.

(09-23-2018, 09:21 PM)crotalus97 Wrote: "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

Okay, and?

Are you a prophet?
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#8
(09-24-2018, 03:28 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: Okay, and?

Are you a prophet?

Every Protestant's a prophet. That's why there are a gorillion Protestant denominations disagreeing with each other. 

-- oh.

Seriously though, any Christian with ANY sense of History -- a morsel, crumb, or whiff of an historical sense, or even a shadow of a modicum thereof -- will have to end up either Catholic or Orthodox.
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#9
Here is a segment from Acts 8:30-31     "Do you understand what you are reading?", And he said, "How can I , unless someone guides me?"

And Philip was the one who guided the Eunuch.   But who was guiding Philip?  

In the verses prior it clearly reveals that Philip was himself guided by the Holy Spirit.  Philip was filled with the Holy Spirit.   It is the Holy Spirit that guides us to understand Scripture.   We by ourselves are of this world and are unable to understand Scripture.  But if we are filled with the Holy Spirit, we are no longer slaves of this world.  If we are filled with the Holy Spirit it is He who guides us to understand scripture.      

My understanding is that the Apostles were not able to preach and spread the gospel until they themselves were filled with the power of the Holy Spirit.   John 16:13-15 and Acts 2.

What all of us must sincerely and humbly ask of ourselves is this:  "Am I truly filled with the Holy Spirit?"
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#10
(09-25-2018, 07:29 PM)crotalus97 Wrote: And Philip was the one who guided the Eunuch.   But who was guiding Philip?  

In the verses prior it clearly reveals that Philip was himself guided by the Holy Spirit.  Philip was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Philip was an ordained Deacon. He was by being ordained a deacon given the special mission to preach in the name of the Church.

He was filled with the Holy Spirit by his office, which was to teach.


(09-25-2018, 07:29 PM)crotalus97 Wrote: It is the Holy Spirit that guides us to understand Scripture.   We by ourselves are of this world and are unable to understand Scripture.  But if we are filled with the Holy Spirit, we are no longer slaves of this world.  If we are filled with the Holy Spirit it is He who guides us to understand scripture.   

My understanding is that the Apostles were not able to preach and spread the gospel until they themselves were filled with the power of the Holy Spirit.   John 16:13-15 and Acts 2.

What all of us must sincerely and humbly ask of ourselves is this:  "Am I truly filled with the Holy Spirit?"

Which is the exact question one needs to ask ...

And the answer if we read Scripture is : No, not in such a way as to interpret Scripture (Cf. 2 Pet 1.20) : "Yet always you must remember this, that no prophecy in scripture is the subject of private interpretation"

Private individuals—we—do not have the authority or charism to be able to authoritatively interpret Scripture. We need an authority, and the only one Christ Himself gave us is the Church: Mater et Magistra.

If we're seeking to interpret Scripture on our own without the help of the Church (which was divinely-instituted precisely to guide and teach), that would be pride, and comes from a certain spirit, not the Holy Spirit. (Cf. 2 Cor 3.6, 2 Pt 3.16)
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