Authority and Obedience
#11
(10-19-2018, 01:02 PM)jack89 Wrote: I'm a retired soldier so I understand the value of obedience and how it contributes to order.  I am also well aware that a soldier is not required to obey unlawful orders, and in some cases should not.  Sometimes you can work through situations and regain trust in leaders who make mistakes, but persistent abuse of power leads to a general mistrust of leadership. 

So on one hand you have a lack of authority from the unlawful order itself, and on the other hand a leader loses authority from a lack of integrity. 

I think these are the basic principles that the Church applies as well, from the little reading I've done on it. 

One of the main reasons I returned to the Catholic Church is that she has rational, sound teachings and that they are pretty much set in stone, or so I thought.  I've been disillusioned of that notion by the recent scandals in the Church.  It's not just the anecdotal sex scandals, but also the culture of covering them up that leads to distrust.  I am beginning to realize the vast scope of the cover ups and it's overwhelming.  Combine that with uncertain political agendas from the hierarchy and I wonder how they can continue to claim authority.  Leadership in general seems to have crossed that threshold of making a mistake or two and has entered the persistent abuse of power category.  

Has the Catholic institution lost its claim of authority? Can the institution still claim to represent the one true Church?  Why should the faithful obey any new teachings of such an institutions, or any for that matter?  Consider these questions from the perspective of an average practicing Catholic.

Cheers.

The one true apostolic Church has faced dire times before, whether it -unfortunately- was Popes digging up graves of previous Popes, Popes that had married other Popes, the Avignon Schism where there was 1 Pope and 2 Anti-Popes, etc. In each of these situations, the Church Militant emerged triumphant, that is, the Church on Earth continued to carry out it's apostolic commandment in St. Matthew and Mark's Gospels to go and evangelize throughout the world.

The thing about the Church's correct claim to being the one true Church is the fact that in Matthew 16:18, Jesus states that Peter is his rock, and on this rock(Peter), he will build his Church and Gehenna/Hades/Hell will never prevail against it. Notice in it's in the past/present/future tense because he says Hades will never prevail against it. It's something if my memory serves me right is evidenced also in Koine Greek(but don't take my word for it). This is also affirmed when we have numerous early Christian writings stating that the Pope(who's the Bishop of Rome) was ordained by the most holy apostle, martyr, and bishop, Saint Peter.

Having come from a country that was colonized, I can understand, in a sense what you mean when you talk about the Holy Mother Church's abuses and disasters. There were also unfortunate disasters that occurred in regards to evangelical missions, but (for me at least), it does not affect my faith? Why? Because the actions of people in leadership does not reflect the Church's purpose, and what it stands for.

Most importantly, I'll state this: everything that happened here in regard to the numerous abuses in the Church is predicted by approved apparitions by the Blessed Virgin Mary(Our Lady of La Salette, Our Lady of Good Successes, Our Lady of Fatima, etc) and the writings of numerous people in which God revealed what would happen at the latter time. Moreoever, in regards to obedience and authority, St. Thomas Aquinas, a Doctor of the Church states in his Summa that one could disobey a superior if what he is doing is wrong. This includes a Pope, and there are multiple Saints that in dire times where the Church has been attacked disobeyed Popes because what they did was wrong, and there are also Popes that affirm this position as well.
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#12
Church Militant's post touched on this, but a good consolation, so to speak, is to consider a typical "informed" person, lay or not, during times of crisis in the church. Times that may have lasted more than a generation, so this person you are visualizing may never have experienced the conclusion to the crisis. What if your own bishop was denying the full humanity of Christ and persecuting you or your family or friends for believing the truth? This happened during the Arian crisis. Or more apt to our times, what if it wasn't clear who really was the true pope? Use your imagination and commiserate with those unnamed saints who lived and died during those struggles. Imagine youself doing what they probably did:  much prayer and penance, staying close to our Lord and his mother, avoiding constant rumination and worry about the present and keeping their eyes on the future (heaven).
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#13
(10-22-2018, 12:18 PM)mpk1987 Wrote: Church Militant's post touched on this, but a good consolation, so to speak, is to consider a typical "informed" person, lay or not, during times of crisis in the church. Times that may have lasted more than a generation, so this person you are visualizing may never have experienced the conclusion to the crisis. What if your own bishop was denying the full humanity of Christ and persecuting you or your family or friends for believing the truth? This happened during the Arian crisis. Or more apt to our times, what if it wasn't clear who really was the true pope? Use your imagination and commiserate with those unnamed saints who lived and died during those struggles. Imagine youself doing what they probably did:  much prayer and penance, staying close to our Lord and his mother, avoiding constant rumination and worry about the present and keeping their eyes on the future (heaven).

Good advice, and I agree that's the right course to take.  The little bit of doubt I have isn't in our Lord or Mother Mary, but in what's currently being taught by those in the Church.  I've found I need to be careful of what I'm hearing from some priests, and skeptical of what's coming out of the Vatican.  I've had a couple of eye openers concerning ecumenism and interfaith dialogue, a priest condoning liberation theology in the confessional, and some things my local parish is putting out.

I think Vatican II was probably a mistake, but that's part of the Church and what it now teaches. I wonder if it's right or wise to reject what I intuitively see as wrong if it's endorsed by the Church.  You're right though, I need to stop dwelling on it at get back to basics.

Going old-school seems the best approach at this point.  I've been reading through an old catechism, the one put out by St. Pius X, and that all rings true.
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#14
(10-23-2018, 01:27 AM)jack89 Wrote:
(10-22-2018, 12:18 PM)mpk1987 Wrote: Church Militant's post touched on this, but a good consolation, so to speak, is to consider a typical "informed" person, lay or not, during times of crisis in the church. Times that may have lasted more than a generation, so this person you are visualizing may never have experienced the conclusion to the crisis. What if your own bishop was denying the full humanity of Christ and persecuting you or your family or friends for believing the truth? This happened during the Arian crisis. Or more apt to our times, what if it wasn't clear who really was the true pope? Use your imagination and commiserate with those unnamed saints who lived and died during those struggles. Imagine youself doing what they probably did:  much prayer and penance, staying close to our Lord and his mother, avoiding constant rumination and worry about the present and keeping their eyes on the future (heaven).

Good advice, and I agree that's the right course to take.  The little bit of doubt I have isn't in our Lord or Mother Mary, but in what's currently being taught by those in the Church.  I've found I need to be careful of what I'm hearing from some priests, and skeptical of what's coming out of the Vatican.  I've had a couple of eye openers concerning ecumenism and interfaith dialogue, a priest condoning liberation theology in the confessional, and some things my local parish is putting out.

I think Vatican II was probably a mistake, but that's part of the Church and what it now teaches. I wonder if it's right or wise to reject what I intuitively see as wrong if it's endorsed by the Church.  You're right though, I need to stop dwelling on it at get back to basics.

Going old-school seems the best approach at this point.  I've been reading through an old catechism, the one put out by St. Pius X, and that all rings true.
There have been Popes who unfortunately taught things that were not in line with the Church. The Second Vatican Council goes against other papal encylicals and Councils, and if our superiors such as the clergy are wrong, we are commanded in scripture not to obey them. This is also affirmed in St. Thomas Aquinas' Summa.
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#15
A few random thoughts/points...

1. The documents that came out of Vatican II are not binding. They defined no dogma at all. The pope who called it and the pope who promulgated both clearly stated it was to be kept it on a pastoral level.  

2. Anything that the current pope teaches which goes against what the Church has always and everywhere professed is not valid, since truth can never contradict itself. 

3. The Church was infiltrated by Freemasons and communists, so we shouldn't be surprised by what's happening. The Sh*t has hit the fan. Now we get to clean it up. 
https://sensusfidelium.us/freemasonry-co...holy-face/


4. Nothing that's going on in the "big Church" should be allowed to interfere with what I'm supposed to be doing in my "little Church", which is primarily my family life and home. I limit the amount of time spent listening to the details of the scandal. I should be aware of what's going on, but not to the point that it causes despair. Instead, I want to saturate my head and heart with good sermons and podcasts. Stuff like you'll find on  Sensus Fidelium  for example.  

5. If you're lucky enough to live within range of  traditional Catholic church, that's a wonderful blessing. If not, try to get to one at least seasonally if possible.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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