Koran With Commentary
#11
(01-12-2019, 05:04 PM)Some Guy Wrote: So in the same way that St Robert Bellarmine really dug down into the theology of protestants in order to truely understand what they believed and how to refute their positions, is there anything like that out there for Islam? I want to better understand the theology of Islam, I want to know what the Koran says and how it is typically interpreted by its adherants and I want to help my naive friends and family understand that it is little more than an evil death cult.

You may consider The Great Heresies by Hilaire Belloc.  Islam is one of the five heresies treated in the work.  Though anything of this nature ought to be read with the utmost caution.
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#12
Does anyone know of a good translation of the Koran? I wouldn't even know where to start with this.
"If your heart comes to feel a natural hatred for sin, it has defeated the causes of sin and freed itself from them. Keep hell’s torments in mind; but know that your Helper is at hand. Do nothing that will grieve Him, but say to Him with tears: ‘Be merciful and deliver me, O Lord, for without Thy help I cannot escape from the hands of my enemies.’ Be attentive to your heart, and He will guard you from all evil."

- St. Isaias the Solitary

"Constant action overcomes cold; being still overcomes heat. Purity
and stillness give the correct law to all under heaven."

- Tao Te Ching 45
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#13
(07-11-2019, 02:58 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: In my own studies of Islam both traditional (Sunni and Shia) as well as Sufism I cannot but get the impression Islam is basically a form of NeoPlatonic Monism if that makes sense... Sufism tends to pantheism as well... at least I've never been able to find a way around it's seeming pantheism. Even their idea of the fall is more akin to something out of Origen (prexistent souls "falling" from perfection and seeking to return to the Source etc..) than Biblical. 

There's quite a richness to Islamic theology and philosophy to be honest.  It's got a lot more meat than some might give it credit for, but the religion itself tends toward a regression back to OT style legalisms and monistic pantheism than anything else.  

I found studying it to be very enriching,  but it ultimately reaffirmed my faith in Christ and God as Trinity. 

There is even a Surah in the Quran (66 I think)  where God allegedly rebukes people for questioning whether Mohammed should be allowed to take his slave girl to bed or not.  Just insane stuff from a Christian perspective.  I couldn't get polygamy or the crazy stuff about women as "spoils of war" either.  

Islam has a lot of interesting things within it, but ultimately it's a regression from Christianity, not its completion.  

I also couldn't understand for the life of me how anyone could think that the verse in St. John referring to the Paraclete somehow meant Mohammed. Yes, in Islam the Holy Spirit is said to be either Mohammed or the Archangel Gabriel. Bizarre to say the least!

Where'd you do your reading on this topic FB? From what I've heard and some secondary reading I've had the same thoughts as well. Also, I really appreciate how you don't just outright condemn this stuff but give it a fair and honest chance.
"If your heart comes to feel a natural hatred for sin, it has defeated the causes of sin and freed itself from them. Keep hell’s torments in mind; but know that your Helper is at hand. Do nothing that will grieve Him, but say to Him with tears: ‘Be merciful and deliver me, O Lord, for without Thy help I cannot escape from the hands of my enemies.’ Be attentive to your heart, and He will guard you from all evil."

- St. Isaias the Solitary

"Constant action overcomes cold; being still overcomes heat. Purity
and stillness give the correct law to all under heaven."

- Tao Te Ching 45
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#14
(07-23-2019, 10:24 AM)Florus Wrote:
(07-11-2019, 02:58 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: In my own studies of Islam both traditional (Sunni and Shia) as well as Sufism I cannot but get the impression Islam is basically a form of NeoPlatonic Monism if that makes sense... Sufism tends to pantheism as well... at least I've never been able to find a way around it's seeming pantheism. Even their idea of the fall is more akin to something out of Origen (prexistent souls "falling" from perfection and seeking to return to the Source etc..) than Biblical. 

There's quite a richness to Islamic theology and philosophy to be honest.  It's got a lot more meat than some might give it credit for, but the religion itself tends toward a regression back to OT style legalisms and monistic pantheism than anything else.  

I found studying it to be very enriching,  but it ultimately reaffirmed my faith in Christ and God as Trinity. 

There is even a Surah in the Quran (66 I think)  where God allegedly rebukes people for questioning whether Mohammed should be allowed to take his slave girl to bed or not.  Just insane stuff from a Christian perspective.  I couldn't get polygamy or the crazy stuff about women as "spoils of war" either.  

Islam has a lot of interesting things within it, but ultimately it's a regression from Christianity, not its completion.  

I also couldn't understand for the life of me how anyone could think that the verse in St. John referring to the Paraclete somehow meant Mohammed. Yes, in Islam the Holy Spirit is said to be either Mohammed or the Archangel Gabriel. Bizarre to say the least!

Where'd you do your reading on this topic FB? From what I've heard and some secondary reading I've had the same thoughts as well. Also, I really appreciate how you don't just outright condemn this stuff but give it a fair and honest chance.

I always had an interest in other religions,  and there was just something in the back of my mind that made me want to really learn about Islam, I mean,  after all,  it is one of the major religions in the world so there must be something in it that speaks to people in positive ways.  I refused to believe that there wasn't at least something positive or worth understanding in Islam. 

I got a Kindle version of the Study Quran and made sure I read every book I could on Islam either from muslims or those trying to be objective or open to Islam.  I do it this way because you cannot expect to learn about a religion in a balanced way by reading polemical works. Granted, there's A LOT to criticize in Islam, but there's also  A LOT of really interesting stuff.  

Just like in Catholicism where so many Catholics know next to nothing about the deeper aspects of it, do too do many muslims not know much about the deeper aspects of Islam.  

The things in Islam I found very positive were:

ONLY Arabic for canonical prayers from Jakarta to Deadhorse and everywhere in between.  
Ritual Ablutions before prayer
No real separation between religion and daily life. 

Then of course you can study Islamic history and see all the varieties of the religion that exist and it becomes interesting and helps me see that the Islamic world is extremely complex.  

Feel free to ask me whatever you like.  I'm no expert but I've read a lot this past year or two.
Walk before God in simplicity, and not in subtleties of the mind. Simplicity brings faith; but subtle and intricate speculations bring conceit; and conceit brings withdrawal from God. -Saint Isaac of Syria, Directions on Spiritual Training


"It is impossible in human terms to exaggerate the importance of being in a church or chapel before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. I very seldom repeat what I say. Let me repeat this sentence. It is impossible in human language to exaggerate the importance of being in a chapel or church before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. That sentence is the talisman of the highest sanctity. "Father John Hardon
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#15
I must admit one of the more noble aspects of Islam I can appreciate from my limited and distant perspective, is liberalism hasn't destroyed their integralist political beliefs. I long for the days that Catholics sought the conversion of nations to Catholicism rather than just Natural Law.
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#16
(07-23-2019, 02:29 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: I always had an interest in other religions,  and there was just something in the back of my mind that made me want to really learn about Islam, I mean,  after all,  it is one of the major religions in the world so there must be something in it that speaks to people in positive ways.  I refused to believe that there wasn't at least something positive or worth understanding in Islam. 

I got a Kindle version of the Study Quran and made sure I read every book I could on Islam either from muslims or those trying to be objective or open to Islam.  I do it this way because you cannot expect to learn about a religion in a balanced way by reading polemical works. Granted, there's A LOT to criticize in Islam, but there's also  A LOT of really interesting stuff.  

Just like in Catholicism where so many Catholics know next to nothing about the deeper aspects of it, do too do many muslims not know much about the deeper aspects of Islam.  

Me too, I'm reading The Reign of Quantity and the Signs of the Times by Rene Guenon right now and he's very good at pulling together religious systems and seeing what they speak in common, he's really opened my eyes to the value of traditional religious knowledge in general.

Since the last few years of my life have been devoted to going deeper into Catholicism I haven't had the time to really study other systems (other than some cursory reading), but I definitely do want to start, it's an endlessly interesting topic.
"If your heart comes to feel a natural hatred for sin, it has defeated the causes of sin and freed itself from them. Keep hell’s torments in mind; but know that your Helper is at hand. Do nothing that will grieve Him, but say to Him with tears: ‘Be merciful and deliver me, O Lord, for without Thy help I cannot escape from the hands of my enemies.’ Be attentive to your heart, and He will guard you from all evil."

- St. Isaias the Solitary

"Constant action overcomes cold; being still overcomes heat. Purity
and stillness give the correct law to all under heaven."

- Tao Te Ching 45
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#17
(07-23-2019, 05:44 PM)Florus Wrote:
(07-23-2019, 02:29 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: I always had an interest in other religions,  and there was just something in the back of my mind that made me want to really learn about Islam, I mean,  after all,  it is one of the major religions in the world so there must be something in it that speaks to people in positive ways.  I refused to believe that there wasn't at least something positive or worth understanding in Islam. 

I got a Kindle version of the Study Quran and made sure I read every book I could on Islam either from muslims or those trying to be objective or open to Islam.  I do it this way because you cannot expect to learn about a religion in a balanced way by reading polemical works. Granted, there's A LOT to criticize in Islam, but there's also  A LOT of really interesting stuff.  

Just like in Catholicism where so many Catholics know next to nothing about the deeper aspects of it, do too do many muslims not know much about the deeper aspects of Islam.  

Me too, I'm reading The Reign of Quantity and the Signs of the Times by Rene Guenon right now and he's very good at pulling together religious systems and seeing what they speak in common, he's really opened my eyes to the value of traditional religious knowledge in general.

Since the last few years of my life have been devoted to going deeper into Catholicism I haven't had the time to really study other systems (other than some cursory reading), but I definitely do want to start, it's an endlessly interesting topic.

Esoteric traditionalists like Rene Guenon and Julia Evola are actually what got me into the proper mindset to convert to Catholicism. I've had a lot of interest in the past with comparative religion, and very recently have begun delving into it once more. There's a lot of vestiges of God within many of these traditions, and while that does not elevate these religions to something worthy of practice, it does emphasize the presence of God through the millennia after the Fall.

I'm currently reading Christian Gnosis by Wolfgang Smith, and he dives into some comparisons between the Vedic cosmology and its commonalities with Catholicism. I've also had a sudden profound interest in Lutheran mystic Jacob Boehme, who has some profound insights into Genesis.

As for Islam, St. Thomas Aquinas and other scholastics utilized Islamic philosophers in their works. I think that speaks volumes about the knowledge to be gained of the study of non-Catholic religions.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

'And he shall be as a tree that is planted by the waters, that spreadeth out its roots towards moisture: and it shall not fear when the heat cometh.' - Jeremias 17:8

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#18
(01-12-2019, 05:04 PM)Some Guy Wrote: So in the same way that St Robert Bellarmine really dug down into the theology of protestants in order to truely understand what they believed and how to refute their positions, is there anything like that out there for Islam? I want to better understand the theology of Islam, I want to know what the Koran says and how it is typically interpreted by its adherants and I want to help my naive friends and family understand that it is little more than an evil death cult.

By their fruits you shall know them. I don't know that you have to dig that deep. Sharia law, honor killings, burkas. Once there is enough of a majority of them here in the United States, we'll know more then we want to of them. As for finding the good things in that religion, that's a little like looking for diamonds in a dung heap. I'm sure there's a few.
"Not only are we all in the same boat, but we are all seasick.” --G.K. Chesterton
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#19
(07-26-2019, 09:13 AM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote: Once there is enough of a majority of them here in the United States, we'll know more then we want to of them.

It doesn't even have to be a majority. The usual estimate is that 10% of the population is gay, although that study's flawed and it's likely much less. And 1% or less are transgender. Look at the fuss these days over that. Or just look at Europe, and the favour Muslims enjoy when they're only 5-10% of the population.

It's not that all Muslims are terrorists. Plenty of them are what the secular world would call "good people". The problem is that it makes them bad Muslims, since the ideal Muslim is Mohammad. And unlike the Bible, which was inspired by God but written by men, every word of the Koran is believed to have been dictated by God, so there's much less argument that it doesn't really mean what it says. The Koran very clearly commands violence against unbelievers, so the orthodox Muslims are the ones doing so. The others are like Catholics who use birth control.
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#20
(07-26-2019, 03:35 PM)Paul Wrote:
(07-26-2019, 09:13 AM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote: Once there is enough of a majority of them here in the United States, we'll know more then we want to of them.

It doesn't even have to be a majority. The usual estimate is that 10% of the population is gay, although that study's flawed and it's likely much less. And 1% or less are transgender. Look at the fuss these days over that. Or just look at Europe, and the favour Muslims enjoy when they're only 5-10% of the population.

It's not that all Muslims are terrorists. Plenty of them are what the secular world would call "good people". The problem is that it makes them bad Muslims, since the ideal Muslim is Mohammad. And unlike the Bible, which was inspired by God but written by men, every word of the Koran is believed to have been dictated by God, so there's much less argument that it doesn't really mean what it says. The Koran very clearly commands violence against unbelievers, so the orthodox Muslims are the ones doing so. The others are like Catholics who use birth control.
Well I'm not sure I'm understanding you entirely. Are you saying there are parts of the Bible that are an error ? Because as Catholics we believe that the Bible is divinely inspired 100% from God at written through the hands of men. There's nothing in there that would be contrary to the deposit of faith that would be impossible.

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"Not only are we all in the same boat, but we are all seasick.” --G.K. Chesterton
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