Benevacantism, Etc.
It seems to me that you cannot say "John committed murder" without judging him. You could say "John committed homicide" without judging him. I may be wrong.
[-] The following 1 user Likes Marmot's post:
  • jovan66102
Reply
(04-21-2021, 06:55 AM)Marmot Wrote: It seems to me that you cannot say "John committed murder" without judging him. You could say "John committed homicide" without judging him. I may be wrong.

Yeah, I'm confused by that, too. I don't see how the two can be separated. If I judge the ACT of public heresy, it seems to me that I must judge the person committing the act as being guilty of the act. How can act exist to be judged without an actor who is guilty of the act?
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
FishEaters Group on MeWe
Reply
To "judge" has a number of meanings, and in this case, it connotes imposing a penalty.  The prohibition against "judging" does not require us to mute that internal voice which is always adjudicating the truth value of propositions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-ultramontanism
Reply
In order to be a member of the Catholic Church one cannot be a manifest and pertinacious heretic. In order to be a pope one must be a member of the Catholic Church. It can be irrefutably demonstrated, to those with eyes to see and ears to hear, that Roncali through Bergoglio were manifest and pertinacious heretics. Therefore, IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, backed by the VAST majority of theologians, Fathers, popes, and Doctors of the Church, they were not popes. It seems to me that it’s possible that Montini MAY have been validly elected but lost his pontificate due to his manifest heresy.
Reply
Opinions are like anuses.  Everybody has one.

You may have an opinion, but you have no authority whatsoever to judge these popes.
[-] The following 1 user Likes Evangelium's post:
  • jovan66102
Reply
(04-21-2021, 11:05 PM)Bataar Wrote: IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, backed by the VAST majority of theologians, Fathers, popes, and Doctors of the Church, they were not popes.

Yeah, so what? T
he VAST majority of theologians, Fathers, popes, and Doctors of the Church, as well as Canon Law, also say that no one can judge the Pope, that he's answerable to God alone.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
FishEaters Group on MeWe
Reply
(04-21-2021, 11:05 PM)Bataar Wrote: In order to be a member of the Catholic Church one cannot be a manifest and pertinacious heretic. In order to be a pope one must be a member of the Catholic Church. It can be irrefutably demonstrated, to those with eyes to see and ears to hear, that Roncali through Bergoglio were manifest and pertinacious heretics. Therefore, IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, backed by the VAST majority of theologians, Fathers, popes, and Doctors of the Church, they were not popes. It seems to me that it’s possible that Montini MAY have been validly elected but lost his pontificate due to his manifest heresy.

Sedevacantism is such a tiring position.

It can be irrefutably demonstrated, yet.... IN MY PERSONAL OPINION

Look, Francis is the Pope. It's a bummer. Get used to it.
"Especially will I do this if the Lord make known to me that you come together man by man in common through grace, individually, in one faith, and in Jesus Christ... so that you obey the bishop and the presbytery with an undivided mind, breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the antidote to prevent us from dying, but which causes that we should live for ever in Jesus Christ." St. Ignatius of Antioch

"But Polycarp... waving his hand towards them, while with groans he look up to heaven, said, 'Away with the Atheists.'" Martyrdom of Polycarp
[-] The following 4 users Like Justin Tertius's post:
  • ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident, jovan66102, Marmot, PilgrimMichelangelo
Reply
The pope has the same authority as Christ. Can the authority of Christ teach moral error and lead souls to hell?
Reply
(04-22-2021, 10:54 AM)Bataar Wrote: The pope has the same authority as Christ. Can the authority of Christ teach moral error and lead souls to hell?

Where sedevacantists err is to inflate infallibility to cover every single act of every single Pope.

Infallibility is a negative charism.  It does not prevent the Pope from believing heresy or even teaching heresy.  It prevents the Pope from binding the faithful into error.
[-] The following 3 users Like ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident's post:
  • Bonaventure, jovan66102, Marmot
Reply
Sola Ex Cathedra is every bit as much a heresy as Sola Scriptura
1.) Sola Ex Cathedra (Popes are only infallible when making
an ex cathedra definition) is a heresy of semi-Trads.
2.) Sola Scriptura (only the Bible is infallible) is a heresy of Protestants.

If the Popes could at times teach heresy, how would we know when they are teaching truth or error? We would have to be the superior of the Pope to decide when he is teaching the truth and when he is teaching falsehood…that is a complete prideful delusion!


OBJECTION # 1: Vatican I said the Pope is only infallible when speaking Ex Cathedra

ANSWER # 1: While it is true that Vatican I declared that Ex Cathedra statements are infallible; it is absolutely NOT true that Ex Cathedra statements are the ONLY times Popes are infallible. Vatican I infallibly declares:

The First Vatican Council
Dogmatic Constitution of Vatican I,Pastor Aeternus
Pope Pius IX, July 18, 1870 A.D.

“Indeed, their apostolic teaching was embraced by all the venerable fathers and reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors, for they knew very well that this see of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Savior to the prince of his disciples: I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.

“This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this see so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine.”

The First Vatican Council
Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith, Dei Filius
Pope Pius IX, 24 April 1870 A.D.

“Wherefore, by divine and Catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in Scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the Church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal magisterium.”

Humani Generis
On Modern Errors
Pope Pius XII – August 12, 1950

Paragraph 20: “Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent, since in writing such Letters the Popes do not exercise the supreme power of their Teaching Authority. For these matters are taught with the ordinary teaching authority (magisterio ordinario), of which it is true to say: “He who heareth you, heareth me…” (Lk. 10:16)

Notice above in Humani Generis, Pope Pius XII infallibly teaches that

Encyclical Letters are the Ordinary Magisterium, "of which it is true to say: “He who heareth you, heareth me…” (Lk. 10:16)
So if we admit that Christ is infallible,
Then we must admit that Encyclicals and the Ordinary Magisterium are infallible.

If the Popes could at times teach heresy, how would we know when they are teaching truth or error? We would have to be the superior of the Pope to decide when he is teaching the truth and when he is teaching falsehood…that is a complete prideful delusion!

1. If Popes could teach error and heresy in Encyclicals and Ecumenical Councils then why would we believe in the Trinity, maybe the Council of Nicea got that wrong?

2. If true Popes could teach error and heresy in "Dogmatic Constitutions" of Ecumenical Councils, why would we believe in Purgatory or that there are 7 Sacraments, maybe the Council of Trent just got those things wrong?

3. If true Popes could teach error and heresy in their Ordinary Magisterium as long as it isn't an ex cathedra statement, why would we believe that contraception is evil, that is not an Ex Cathedra statement, that is just taught in simple Encyclicals, maybe the Casti Connubbii was wrong.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)