Traditional Catholics Unite the Clans (Dr. Marshall and Michael Matt)
#21
(03-22-2019, 08:13 AM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote: So MM, you're essentially saying that nothing can happen in terms of these groups working together until the FSSP says, "Uncle", and "We're sorry."

No.

What I wrote and intended is to say that it is myopic and idealistic to think there could be any substantial unity between groups like the FSSP and SSPX, given the history and principles each holds. Those principles are incompatible.

As has been shown above the official position of the FSSP is that the SSPX is still to this day in schism. I say that's false. There are some FSSP priests I know who say it is false, but let us assume, for now, it's true. If such a case clearly the FSSP could never with such a stance have any unity with the SSPX. Catholic doctrine would not allow it. I think the leadership of the FSSP truly believes this, or at least if they do not, understanding that their founding documents and foundational principles demand that the SSPX be in schism, else one of the core purposes evaporates without them having done anything to be victorious.

Since to be in union with a schismatic is a mortal sin against the Faith, clearly the FSSP and SSPX cannot unify in any meaningful way.

The only fix to this which would allow some unity is if the FSSP dropped the claim that the SSPX was in schism. I don't think it requires an "I'm sorry we were wrong" and that's not typically how the Church works on such issues. She usually just states the correct position and lets the mistake fade into history.

There are perfect opportunities to do this when things happen to the SSPX. When the SSPX was given ordinary jurisdiction to hear confessions and a means for delegation in celebrating marriage in the ordinary canonical form, the FSSP could easily have made a statement welcoming this gesture of the Pope and thanking him for taking away any questions about the validity of the SSPX sacraments. They could even have thanked the Pope for ending of the schism of the SSPX.

At the election of Fr Pagliarani as new superior general, the FSSP could have sent their own new Superior General to meet him officially or publicly congratulate him and the Society saying it is good that they now have an ordinary judisdiction and are working towards a Prelature.

Those are just two ideas, but other opportunities to make official statements without making official declarations would certainly communicate the idea that the FSSP has a warmer attitude towards the SSPX, then let the whole "schism" accusation fade away. With that unity could be a possibility. Without something, however, there won't be unity between the FSSP and SSPX.

The only reason I focus on the FSSP and not the SSPX is that the latter is being accused of a canonical crime. If the SSPX is not in schism, then the accuser has to be the one to make the first gesture, to remove the posion from the well.

(03-22-2019, 08:13 AM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote: But you still haven't responded to my point made in a couple different posts on how it actually benefits the groups that the other exists. Pragmatically speaking, it's a good thing they do. I think it's providential.

I don't see any benefit, rather harm to the whole traditional cause. I think that was precisely what was intended by those intent on destroying Tradition. Divide and conquer. The division worked to create groups with fundamental differences in principles, so no unity is possible, and given different principles no positive influence from one to the other could happen.

Thus I ignored it since it's pretty immaterial to my point, which was that to desire unity in action one first needs unity in principles, and since we're very far from this, unity on any level without principles would be a superficial unity at best and more likely pure fiction.
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#22
Myopic, and idealistic? Yeah, maybe that's me. My eyesights gotten worse and I'm an idealist. But so is He.

[21] That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.[22] And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one: [23] I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me. [24] Father, I will that where I am, they also whom thou hast given me may be with me; that they may see my glory which thou hast given me, because thou hast loved me before the creation of the world. [25] Just Father, the world hath not known thee; but I have known thee: and these have known that thou hast sent me.

[26] And I have made known thy name to them, and will make it known; that the love wherewith thou hast loved me, may be in them, and I in them.

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#23
(03-24-2019, 09:21 PM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote: Myopic, and idealistic? Yeah, maybe that's me. My eyesights gotten worse and I'm an idealist. But so is He.

... "That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

Our Lord wants unity but not without something substantial on which to found it, namely, a unity of principles.

To propose a unity without fundamentally unified principles is to propose a false unity, just as a friendship based on lies.

Listen, I hope for that same unity, but it will be only when there can be a unity of vision and principles, and thus a unity which is worthy of Our Lord, who is the Truth.

If FSSP and SSPX people and priest want to get together to protest an abortion mill and pray outside, or stand up to Fr James Martin coming to town. Great!

The FSSP, however, will never permit an SSPX priest to be deacon at a solemn Mass at the church, for example, nor should they if they think the SSPX schismatic. Their principles woudl never allow such a thing. 

So fine, I'll admit that perhaps some accidental unity on less important topics could be possible, but aside from accidental unity on a few things, there cannot be any real unity until there is a unity of principles.
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#24
(03-24-2019, 09:21 PM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote: Myopic, and idealistic? Yeah, maybe that's me. My eyesights gotten worse and I'm an idealist. But so is He.

[21] That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
That's the same argument the ecumaniacs use to claim that we're all just one big church. Ya know, 'As long as we believin Jesus, what'the diff?'
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#25
(03-25-2019, 02:03 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(03-24-2019, 09:21 PM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote: Myopic, and idealistic? Yeah, maybe that's me. My eyesights gotten worse and I'm an idealist. But so is He.

[21] That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
That's the same argument the ecumaniacs use to claim that we're all just one big church. Ya know, 'As long as we believin Jesus, what'the diff?'

Exactly. Principles matter.

Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange Wrote:In the Church we again meet with this same harmony between things most difficult to reconcile. In her, charity most compassionate and doctrine most firm and uncompromising are united in one love, which is zeal for God's glory and the salvation of souls. She knows she can do no good without combating evil, that she cannot preach the Gospel without fighting heresy. Mercy and firmness of doctrine can exist only when united; separated they die, and we have left but two corpses, namely, humanitarian Liberalism with its false serenity, and fanaticism with its false zeal. It has been said: "The Church is intolerant in principle because she believes; she is tolerant in practice because she loves. The enemies of the Church are tolerant in principle, because they do not believe, and intolerant in practice, because they do not love." On the one hand, theory is opposed to practice; on the other, it penetrates and arranges all things with firmness and gentleness. (God: His Existence and His Nature, p. 410)

Or as Ernest Hello put it: "The mediocre man regrets that the Christian religion has dogmas. He would like it to teach only ethics, and if you tell him that its code of morals comes from its dogmas as the consequences comes from the principle, he will answer that you exaggerate." Our actions must be guided by principles of truth.
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#26
(03-25-2019, 02:03 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(03-24-2019, 09:21 PM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote: Myopic, and idealistic? Yeah, maybe that's me. My eyesights gotten worse and I'm an idealist. But so is He.

[21] That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
That's the same argument the ecumaniacs use to claim that we're all just one big church. Ya know, 'As long as we believin Jesus, what'the diff?'

Perhaps that could be over simplifying to some extent. As I've tried to mention previously we're talking about traditional Catholic priests, not Baptists, Presbyterians and ?Pentecostals.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#27
(03-24-2019, 11:18 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(03-24-2019, 09:21 PM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote: Myopic, and idealistic? Yeah, maybe that's me. My eyesights gotten worse and I'm an idealist. But so is He.

... "That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

Our Lord wants unity but not without something substantial on which to found it, namely, a unity of principles.

To propose a unity without fundamentally unified principles is to propose a false unity, just as a friendship based on lies.

Listen, I hope for that same unity, but it will be only when there can be a unity of vision and principles, and thus a unity which is worthy of Our Lord, who is the Truth.

If FSSP and SSPX people and priest want to get together to protest an abortion mill and pray outside, or stand up to Fr James Martin coming to town. Great!

The FSSP, however, will never permit an SSPX priest to be deacon at a solemn Mass at the church, for example, nor should they if they think the SSPX schismatic. Their principles woudl never allow such a thing. 

So fine, I'll admit that perhaps some accidental unity on less important topics could be possible, but aside from accidental unity on a few things, there cannot be any real unity until there is a unity of principles.


MM, I appreciate what you're saying--in all seriousness--that there's issues to be ironed out. But I just have to think that for the sake of God's Church and His grace, it (unity) can happen and really it has to happen. I think it's non-negotiable if the future generations are to see the Latin Mass said once again in our local parishes. So many churches are being sold now. If traditionalists don'r unite in the next decade give or take, many more churches will be lost with no one to rescue them. We're not that powerful as little tiny fringe groups. We need to network.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#28
(03-25-2019, 10:07 PM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote:
(03-24-2019, 11:18 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(03-24-2019, 09:21 PM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote: Myopic, and idealistic? Yeah, maybe that's me. My eyesights gotten worse and I'm an idealist. But so is He.

... "That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

Our Lord wants unity but not without something substantial on which to found it, namely, a unity of principles.

To propose a unity without fundamentally unified principles is to propose a false unity, just as a friendship based on lies.

Listen, I hope for that same unity, but it will be only when there can be a unity of vision and principles, and thus a unity which is worthy of Our Lord, who is the Truth.

If FSSP and SSPX people and priest want to get together to protest an abortion mill and pray outside, or stand up to Fr James Martin coming to town. Great!

The FSSP, however, will never permit an SSPX priest to be deacon at a solemn Mass at the church, for example, nor should they if they think the SSPX schismatic. Their principles woudl never allow such a thing. 

So fine, I'll admit that perhaps some accidental unity on less important topics could be possible, but aside from accidental unity on a few things, there cannot be any real unity until there is a unity of principles.


MM, I appreciate what you're saying--in all seriousness--that there's issues to be ironed out. But I just have to think that for the sake of God's Church and His grace, it (unity) can happen and really it has to happen. I think it's non-negotiable if the future generations are to see the Latin Mass said once again in our local parishes. So many churches are being sold now. If traditionalists don'r unite in the next decade give or take, many more churches will be lost with no one to rescue them. We're not that powerful as little tiny fringe groups. We need to network.

But you keep avoiding the obvious question from all of this : on what basis and in what manner do you want said groups to unity, such that you can say there is sufficient unity?

Unless the basis for "unity" and a measure of when it is sufficiently had can be defined, then it will always be this nebulous concepts that we will never achieve but always be calling for.

I think if you defined that you would see that there are not just some wrinkles, but full-on tears which need to be sewn up first, and involve certain groups eating crow to do so.
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#29
Quote:on what basis and in what manner do you want said groups to unity, such that you can say there is sufficient unity?

At very least and if nothing else at the ground level, where it can truly matter and make a difference. Though ideally from top to bottom is better and matters most....But okay, on the grass roots level, "Joe FSSP" needs someone to help him because his breastfeeding wife is being called for jury duty. "Adam SSPX" is a lawyer and can easily write up a note for the judge explaining that Mrs. Joe will need a private room, sterilized, sink, refrigerator, breaks for pumping breastmilk every x-hours etc. etc, etc, in order to be able to attend jury duty (meaning, in other words, 'yeah this mama is breastfeeding and can't come do jury duty. If you insist in calling her away from her baby to jury duty then we'll pull out all the stops--legally speaking'.) 

 I mean yeah, you're smart MM everyone here knows that...I think you see how networking is so important and not just at the highest levels?

Jesus was asked, "Who is my neighbor?" I think he answered that its the one closest nearby.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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