Jordan Peterson: Anti-Christ?
#21
(02-10-2020, 03:48 AM)josh987654321 Wrote: So lets pray for him, and as for the OP no he is definitely not the Anti Christ.

Agreed. Although I never did say Peterson was the Anti-Christ, but simply a type of anti-Christ; as in, he may propose views which agree with tradition, but they are still erroneous (and extremely Gnostic) which will still lead the faithful astray.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#22
(02-10-2020, 06:38 PM)Augustinian Wrote: ...he may propose views which agree with tradition, but they are still erroneous (and extremely Gnostic) which will still lead the faithful astray.

I tend to agree. However, as was delineated in this thread, Peterson was a strong factor in a friend of mine converting to Catholicism.
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#23
Peterson reminds me too much of a more intellectual, less physically fit Tyler Durden.

(Also: Why do all young men seem to go through a Nietzsche phase?????!)
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#24
(02-10-2020, 09:04 PM)Elle19 Wrote: (Also: Why do all young men seem to go through a Nietzsche phase?????!)

I went through an Evola phase, but not Nietzsche. I will admit that Nietzsche makes some good points regarding the horrific outcome of a de-Christianized West, so he can be called a "prophet" in that sense. But I don't know, I think some guys are attracted to the whole idea of "will to power" and its correlations with personal might over the meekness of Christ. A lot of people in the pagan circles that I was in really loved this aspect of Nietzsche.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#25
(02-10-2020, 09:16 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(02-10-2020, 09:04 PM)Elle19 Wrote: (Also: Why do all young men seem to go through a Nietzsche phase?????!)

I went through an Evola phase, but not Nietzsche. I will admit that Nietzsche makes some good points regarding the horrific outcome of a de-Christianized West, so he can be called a "prophet" in that sense. But I don't know, I think some guys are attracted to the whole idea of "will to power" and its correlations with personal might over the meekness of Christ. A lot of people in the pagan circles that I was in really loved this aspect of Nietzsche.
I think you hit the nail on the head there.  Men do not like feeling like fighting back is never an option,  especially those men who are more ethnically or culturally aware of what's been happening to white western men especially. The turn the other cheek "forgive and love your enemies at all costs" stuff reeks of weakness and defeatism.  It does tend to turn Christianity into a purely apocalyptic eschatological religion and a deathcult of martyrs.  

Men want something worth fighting and even possibly going to war for as a last resort.  Modern western Christianity in its sick mainstream guise tells men the only option is to lay down, take the abuse and love your enemies while they kill you or perhaps even pretend there are no enemies at all.  That's soul crushing for a young man.  

What helped me was to find a balance and of course to eventually leave mainstream Catholicism altogether, where that "peace at any price" attitude is the norm.
Walk before God in simplicity, and not in subtleties of the mind. Simplicity brings faith; but subtle and intricate speculations bring conceit; and conceit brings withdrawal from God. -Saint Isaac of Syria, Directions on Spiritual Training


"It is impossible in human terms to exaggerate the importance of being in a church or chapel before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. I very seldom repeat what I say. Let me repeat this sentence. It is impossible in human language to exaggerate the importance of being in a chapel or church before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. That sentence is the talisman of the highest sanctity. "Father John Hardon
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#26
(02-11-2020, 06:04 AM)formerbuddhist Wrote:
(02-10-2020, 09:16 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(02-10-2020, 09:04 PM)Elle19 Wrote: (Also: Why do all young men seem to go through a Nietzsche phase?????!)

I went through an Evola phase, but not Nietzsche. I will admit that Nietzsche makes some good points regarding the horrific outcome of a de-Christianized West, so he can be called a "prophet" in that sense. But I don't know, I think some guys are attracted to the whole idea of "will to power" and its correlations with personal might over the meekness of Christ. A lot of people in the pagan circles that I was in really loved this aspect of Nietzsche.
I think you hit the nail on the head there.  Men do not like feeling like fighting back is never an option,  especially those men who are more ethnically or culturally aware of what's been happening to white western men especially. The turn the other cheek "forgive and love your enemies at all costs" stuff reeks of weakness and defeatism.  It does tend to turn Christianity into a purely apocalyptic eschatological religion and a deathcult of martyrs.  

Men want something worth fighting and even possibly going to war for as a last resort.  Modern western Christianity in its sick mainstream guise tells men the only option is to lay down, take the abuse and love your enemies while they kill you or perhaps even pretend there are no enemies at all.  That's soul crushing for a young man.  

What helped me was to find a balance and of course to eventually leave mainstream Catholicism altogether, where that "peace at any price" attitude is the norm.

Nietzsche was the first philosopher I ever tried to read, I think I was about 15, I hardly understood Beyond Good and Evil but it made a lasting impression and got me more interested in heavy reading.

Those are really good points FB. I think to properly understand the passages in the Gospel about turning the other cheek and not resisting evil we really need to also look other parts of Scripture where violence and readiness is commended. Think of the holy wars in the Torah, the psalms, or even Christ telling his disciples to sell their cloaks and buy swords. I think the reason that both attitudes are in the Bible is that there is a legitimate time for both peace and violence, but to focus exclusively on one is disordered, and I agree with you that this is exactly what is going on in mainstream Christianity.
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#27
(02-10-2020, 07:11 PM)Bonaventure Wrote:
(02-10-2020, 06:38 PM)Augustinian Wrote: ...he may propose views which agree with tradition, but they are still erroneous (and extremely Gnostic) which will still lead the faithful astray.

I tend to agree.  However, as was delineated in this thread, Peterson was a strong factor in a friend of mine converting to Catholicism.

I'd also like to add that, because he has views are that more agreeable with tradition, he might also have the effect of "softening" a person's stance against the Church.  In my own conversion from atheism to Catholicism, coming to appreciate the value that religion has (I eventually saw it as getting lots of things right through trial and error) helped me take Christianity more seriously than what I would have during my Richard Dawkins' phase.  If someone views Christianity as a total joke, one too silly to consider, they won't be considering Christianity.  Peterson might have the effect of adding credibility to Christian views, albeit in the mythological sense, but don't underestimate how for many people, such as Bonaventure's friend, that might make them more amenable to hearing the full truth of Christianity.  Peterson is neither a Christian nor an antiChrist.  He might be more like the philosophical pagans of old, whose views in many areas are incompatible with the Church, yet, who still helped pave the way for Christianity.

(02-11-2020, 10:41 AM)Florus Wrote:
(02-11-2020, 06:04 AM)formerbuddhist Wrote:
(02-10-2020, 09:16 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(02-10-2020, 09:04 PM)Elle19 Wrote: (Also: Why do all young men seem to go through a Nietzsche phase?????!)

I went through an Evola phase, but not Nietzsche. I will admit that Nietzsche makes some good points regarding the horrific outcome of a de-Christianized West, so he can be called a "prophet" in that sense. But I don't know, I think some guys are attracted to the whole idea of "will to power" and its correlations with personal might over the meekness of Christ. A lot of people in the pagan circles that I was in really loved this aspect of Nietzsche.
I think you hit the nail on the head there.  Men do not like feeling like fighting back is never an option,  especially those men who are more ethnically or culturally aware of what's been happening to white western men especially. The turn the other cheek "forgive and love your enemies at all costs" stuff reeks of weakness and defeatism.  It does tend to turn Christianity into a purely apocalyptic eschatological religion and a deathcult of martyrs.  

Men want something worth fighting and even possibly going to war for as a last resort.  Modern western Christianity in its sick mainstream guise tells men the only option is to lay down, take the abuse and love your enemies while they kill you or perhaps even pretend there are no enemies at all.  That's soul crushing for a young man.  

What helped me was to find a balance and of course to eventually leave mainstream Catholicism altogether, where that "peace at any price" attitude is the norm.

Nietzsche was the first philosopher I ever tried to read, I think I was about 15, I hardly understood Beyond Good and Evil but it made a lasting impression and got me more interested in heavy reading.

Those are really good points FB. I think to properly understand the passages in the Gospel about turning the other cheek and not resisting evil we really need to also look other parts of Scripture where violence and readiness is commended. Think of the holy wars in the Torah, the psalms, or even Christ telling his disciples to sell their cloaks and buy swords. I think the reason that both attitudes are in the Bible is that there is a legitimate time for both peace and violence, but to focus exclusively on one is disordered, and I agree with you that this is exactly what is going on in mainstream Christianity.

I agree but would also like to add that it is no longer only mainstream Christianity that does this.  We've all heard secular sources blather on about "toxic masculinity," which more often than not is nothing toxic but is ordinary male traits that are healthy and beneficial.  The secular progressive left has been working on a project to emasculate men for several decades now, if not longer.  So, to add to the answer to Elle's question about young men going through a Nietzsche phase, I'd say that Western society has so emasculated the concept of manhood in general that it is unhealthy for young men and that someone like Nietzsche, a philosopher that is still read and taught in secular contexts, represents their first serious exposure to an ideology that helps them reject the emasculated image of manhood that is taught to so many of them.  Hopefully, they can eventually work their way to the truth, which isn't Nietzsche.  This underscores how important it is for us to present the truth as clearly as possible, whenever we get the chance.  Young men shouldn't have to start with Nietzsche so that they can escape the insanity of modern secular progressivism.
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
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#28
(02-11-2020, 10:41 AM)Florus Wrote:
(02-11-2020, 06:04 AM)formerbuddhist Wrote:
(02-10-2020, 09:16 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(02-10-2020, 09:04 PM)Elle19 Wrote: (Also: Why do all young men seem to go through a Nietzsche phase?????!)

I went through an Evola phase, but not Nietzsche. I will admit that Nietzsche makes some good points regarding the horrific outcome of a de-Christianized West, so he can be called a "prophet" in that sense. But I don't know, I think some guys are attracted to the whole idea of "will to power" and its correlations with personal might over the meekness of Christ. A lot of people in the pagan circles that I was in really loved this aspect of Nietzsche.
I think you hit the nail on the head there.  Men do not like feeling like fighting back is never an option,  especially those men who are more ethnically or culturally aware of what's been happening to white western men especially. The turn the other cheek "forgive and love your enemies at all costs" stuff reeks of weakness and defeatism.  It does tend to turn Christianity into a purely apocalyptic eschatological religion and a deathcult of martyrs.  

Men want something worth fighting and even possibly going to war for as a last resort.  Modern western Christianity in its sick mainstream guise tells men the only option is to lay down, take the abuse and love your enemies while they kill you or perhaps even pretend there are no enemies at all.  That's soul crushing for a young man.  

What helped me was to find a balance and of course to eventually leave mainstream Catholicism altogether, where that "peace at any price" attitude is the norm.

Nietzsche was the first philosopher I ever tried to read, I think I was about 15, I hardly understood Beyond Good and Evil but it made a lasting impression and got me more interested in heavy reading.

Those are really good points FB. I think to properly understand the passages in the Gospel about turning the other cheek and not resisting evil we really need to also look other parts of Scripture where violence and readiness is commended. Think of the holy wars in the Torah, the psalms, or even Christ telling his disciples to sell their cloaks and buy swords. I think the reason that both attitudes are in the Bible is that there is a legitimate time for both peace and violence, but to focus exclusively on one is disordered, and I agree with you that this is exactly what is going on in mainstream Christianity.
When I really started getting into the OT is when I realised that mainstream Christianity wasn't giving us the whole story.  The OT is full of politics,  wars and righteous violence.  If we must read scripture as a seamless whole than that includes all the political and warlike stuff moderns want to bury.  Between that insight and just looking at the history of Latin and Eastern Christendom and how they saw no reason to become extreme pacifists helped me along in my own understanding,  but admittedly years ago- prior to my deeper readings of the OT--it seemed the "lay down and take it with a smile while blessing your enemies" was about the only option.  Thankfully getting older and trying to see the big picture has helped.
Walk before God in simplicity, and not in subtleties of the mind. Simplicity brings faith; but subtle and intricate speculations bring conceit; and conceit brings withdrawal from God. -Saint Isaac of Syria, Directions on Spiritual Training


"It is impossible in human terms to exaggerate the importance of being in a church or chapel before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. I very seldom repeat what I say. Let me repeat this sentence. It is impossible in human language to exaggerate the importance of being in a chapel or church before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. That sentence is the talisman of the highest sanctity. "Father John Hardon
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#29
(02-11-2020, 10:41 AM)Florus Wrote: Nietzsche was the first philosopher I ever tried to read, I think I was about 15, I hardly understood Beyond Good and Evil but it made a lasting impression and got me more interested in heavy reading.

Those are really good points FB. I think to properly understand the passages in the Gospel about turning the other cheek and not resisting evil we really need to also look other parts of Scripture where violence and readiness is commended. Think of the holy wars in the Torah, the psalms, or even Christ telling his disciples to sell their cloaks and buy swords. I think the reason that both attitudes are in the Bible is that there is a legitimate time for both peace and violence, but to focus exclusively on one is disordered, and I agree with you that this is exactly what is going on in mainstream Christianity.

When you eliminate the common acceptance of death as an inevitable gateway to eternity, then death in itself becomes the ultimate evil. Hence why many like to blaspheme Almighty God as some sort of evil tyrant for chastising the Israelites so often. Death is evil, in the modern view, so to cause death makes one the ultimate villain. There is a "review" of Marvel's Avengers: Endgame on TraditionInAction, that really emphasizes this point:

TraditionInAction Wrote:It is very clear that the message of Infinity War and Endgame is that a god who would destroy half of humanity is evil and that he should be resisted. The Avengers do not accept the “chastisement” or the suffering. Instead, they hate the one who causes the death and destruction and, in their defiance of God, they are victorious.

Yet, the Avengers movies are not the only movies that feature heroes fighting against a villain-god who wants to destroy much of mankind in the name of justice. Dark Knight Rises also comes to mind, where Batman fights against a villain who wishes to destroy Gotham because it is full of corruption.

Indeed, many modern movies encourage people to defy anyone, be he human or god, who dares to chastise a sinful world. No matter how bad humankind is portrayed, Hollywood advocates its right to live.

Though mankind can never be victorious in holding back the hand of God, as the Avengers do, they can lose their souls. Those who blaspheme God and blame Him for the suffering of the Chastisement will be damned. The Devil is forming the mentality of modern man, through modern movies, so that when the Chastisement comes, many souls will be cast into Hell for despising God’s justice.

And it is this perspective which really illuminates just why I personally always find myself sympathizing with the villain in recent Hollywood blockbusters rather than the heroes: the villain of modernity is the wrathful God of the Bible.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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