Papal Primacy vs. Papal Supremacy
#1
So I have to be honest with myself.  As I try to learn more, in early Church history papal primacy is pretty clear - but papal supremacy seems to be very un-clear.

Did some research on the book Papal Primacy, and it appears for the first 300 years if you asked a Christian if the pope was infallible as described today the answer would have been no.

I am having a very hard time with this.  When they wanted to take Jesus and make Him a temporal king he said no.  But it seems Pius the IX did the near opposite.  

I am trying - but I can't seem to see it any other way.
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#2
The Act of Faith says:

Quote:O my God, I firmly believe that Thou art one God in three divine persons, Father, Son and Holy Ghost. I believe that Thy divine Son became man and died for our sins, and that He will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe these and all the truths which the holy catholic Church teaches, because in revealing them Thou canst neither deceive nor be deceived.

The Church teaches:

Quote:We teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that

  • when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
    • that is, when,
    • in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,
    • in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,
    • he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church,
  • he possesses,
    • by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter,
  • that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
  • Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.

So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema. Pastor aeternus, Vatican I.
I leave you to draw your own conclusions.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

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#3
I'm working on this, as I really don't want to go anywhere. I don't know why, there is just something about Papal Infallibility and today's Church that don't sit right with me.

The biggest thing is that primacy was in the early Church, but not supremacy that I see. If I could see supremacy in the Apostolic age I'd feel a lot better.
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#4
Your attitude indicates that you reject the teaching authority of the Church after a certain point, which seems illogical to me. If the Church taught authentically in the Apostolic Age, when did She lose the authority to teach authentically?
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
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#5
(04-03-2019, 08:16 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: Your attitude indicates that you reject the teaching authority of the Church after a certain point, which seems illogical to me. If the Church taught authentically in the Apostolic Age, when did She lose the authority to teach authentically?

A good question.  I heard of a Catholic bishop that said we should consider all councils since the East - West divide to basically local synods, and everything back on the table since then.

I guess in many ways the Eastern Church just looks more like the Apostles to me than the West, and so my questioning.
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#6
Have you seen this excellent compilation right here from Fisheaters on the Eastern Fathers' clear teaching on the necessity of communion with the See of Peter and Rome? https://www.fisheaters.com/easternfathers.html It seems to me the Fathers are even stricter than we are.

And among the early Fathers, Byzantine Saints and Monks like St. Maximus and St. Theodore were Catholic champions of Faith and unity.

St. Maximus: 1. "The extremities of the earth, and everyone in every part of it who purely and rightly confess the Lord, look directly towards the Most Holy Roman Church and her confession and faith, as to a sun of unfailing light awaiting from her the brilliant radiance of the sacred dogmas of our Fathers, according to that which the inspired and holy Councils have stainlessly and piously decreed. For, from the descent of the Incarnate Word amongst us, all the churches in every part of the world have held the greatest Church alone to be their base and foundation, seeing that, according to the promise of Christ Our Savior, the gates of hell will never prevail against her, that she has the keys of the orthodox confession and right faith in Him, that she opens the true and exclusive religion to such men as approach with piety, and she shuts up and locks every heretical mouth which speaks against the Most High." (Maximus, Opuscula theologica et polemica, Migne, Patr. Graec. vol. 90)

2. How much more in the case of the clergy and Church of the Romans, which from old until now presides over all the churches which are under the sun? Having surely received this canonically, as well as from councils and the apostles, as from the princes of the latter (Peter and Paul), and being numbered in their company, she is subject to no writings or issues in synodical documents, on account of the eminence of her pontificate .....even as in all these things all are equally subject to her (the Church of Rome) according to sacerodotal law. And so when, without fear, but with all holy and becoming confidence, those ministers (the popes) are of the truly firm and immovable rock, that is of the most great and Apostolic Church of Rome. (Maximus, in J.B. Mansi, ed. Amplissima Collectio Conciliorum, vol. 10)

3. If the Roman See recognizes Pyrrhus to be not only a reprobate but a heretic, it is certainly plain that everyone who anathematizes those who have rejected Pyrrhus also anathematizes the See of Rome, that is, he anathematizes the Catholic Church. I need hardly add that he excommunicates himself also, if indeed he is in communion with the Roman See and the Catholic Church of God ...Let him hasten before all things to satisfy the Roman See, for if it is satisfied, all will agree in calling him pious and orthodox. For he only speaks in vain who thinks he ought to pursuade or entrap persons like myself, and does not satisfy and implore the blessed Pope of the most holy Catholic Church of the Romans, that is, the Apostolic See, which is from the incarnate of the Son of God Himself, and also all the holy synods, accodring to the holy canons and definitions has received universal and surpreme dominion, authority, and power of binding and loosing over all the holy churches of God throughout the whole world. (Maximus, Letter to Peter, in Mansi x, 692).

St. Theodore the Studite of Constantinople:

1. Writing to Pope Leo III:
Since to great Peter Christ our Lord gave the office of Chief Shepherd after entrusting him with the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, to Peter or his successor must of necessity every novelty in the Catholic Church be referred. [Therefore], save us, oh most divine Head of Heads, Chief Shepherd of the Church of Heaven. (Theodore, Bk. I. Ep. 23)

2. Writing to Pope Paschal:
Hear, O Apostolic Head, divinely-appointed Shepherd of Christ's sheep, keybearer of the Kingdom of Heaven, Rock of the Faith upon whom the Catholic Church is built. For Peter art thou, who adornest and governest the Chair of Peter. Hither, then, from the West, imitator of Christ, arise and repel not for ever (Ps. xliii. 23). To thee spake Christ our Lord: 'And thou being one day converted, shalt strengthen thy brethren.' Behold the hour and the place. Help us, thou that art set by God for this. Stretch forth thy hand so far as thou canst. Thou hast strength with God, through being the first of all. (Letter of St. Theodore and four other Abbots to Pope Paschal, Bk. ii Ep. 12, Patr. Graec. 99, 1152-3)

3. Writing to Emperor Michael:
Order that the declaration from old Rome be received, as was the custom by Tradition of our Fathers from of old and from the beginning. For this, O Emperor, is the highests of the Churches of God, in which first Peter held the Chair, to whom the Lord said: Thou art Peter ...and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Theodore, Bk. II. Ep. 86)

I witness now before God and men, they have torn themselves away from the Body of Christ, from the Surpreme See (Rome), in which Christ placed the keys of the Faith, against which the gates of hell (I mean the mouth of heretics) have not prevailed, and never will until the Consummation, according to the promise of Him Who cannot lie. Let the blessed and Apostolic Paschal (Pope St. Paschal I) rejoice therefore, for he has fulfilled the work of Peter. (Theodore Bk. II. Ep. 63).

St. Maximus dealt with the Monothelite controversy settled in the Sixth Council and St. Theodore with iconcolasm settled in the seventh. As most plainly appears contrary to modern Byzantine revisionists, these great Saints were Catholic champions of Petrine Supremacy.
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#7
(04-03-2019, 11:27 PM)Markie Boy Wrote: I guess in many ways the Eastern Church just looks more like the Apostles to me than the West, 

So it looks 'more like the Apostles' to call Christ a liar when he said, in Mark 10:9, 'What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder', and to have multiple warring Churches when he said, in John 10, 'And there shall be one fold and one shepherd'?
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
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#8
(04-04-2019, 12:10 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(04-03-2019, 11:27 PM)Markie Boy Wrote: I guess in many ways the Eastern Church just looks more like the Apostles to me than the West, 

So it looks 'more like the Apostles' to call Christ a liar when he said, in Mark 10:9, 'What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder', and to have multiple warring Churches when he said, in John 10, 'And there shall be one fold and one shepherd'?
Not to mention the whole “city set on a hill” and “lamp on top of a stand” aspects of Our Lord’s teaching. I read on Dr. Taylor Marshall’s Twitter that only about 12% of self-identified Christians are Orthodox. That’s down from I believe 20%, but I can’t recall when the last survey was taken.
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#9
They fight and go into schism over the oddest things, too. How to pronounce the Holy Name and how to hold your fingers whilst making the Sign of the Cross (Old Believer schism-17th century), or what calendar to use (Old Calendarist schism- 20th century).
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
FishEaters Group on MeWe
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#10
Thanks Jovan. I did some reading early this AM and never realized there was that much Eastern support for the Papacy.

On one hand, everywhere without it has crumbled on things like divorce, gay marriage, and more. And even the East has been very "iffy" on contraception.

The thing that really has had me frustrated, confused, and upset is the state of the Church. I have tried to convert over the last couple years and it's been hard. I have found out on top of things, my local and only available pastor is quite modern, church of nice, and in favor of not rocking any boat. On top of that one of the top lay employees said to me personally, "We are cafeteria Catholics here, we don't believe all that stuff."

The way people think and talk there wouldn't have been tolerated at my old protestant church, which was very conservative. And it's not because what they do and say is Catholic, it's because it's not even good basic Christianity.

And so I have been in turmoil, no longer believing in Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide, but also looking at this thing and seeing something that looks worse than what I left. And so I started looking at the East, because this can't be "it".

Thanks for giving me information and not just a scolding.
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