Outside of the Church, there is no salvation
#11
The way I see it is that we need to make a distinction.  Because Christianity is fractured, especially after the rise of Protestantism, it is necessary to distinguish and say that outside of the "Catholic Church"...there is no salvation.  If we go back 1100 years ago, if you said you are a Christian, there was only one meaning and you were part of the Catholic Church by default.  Therefore, the way I like to phrase it is that if a person is genuinely seeking God and the path to heaven, you cannot be saved outside of the Catholic Church...that is the Church and those in union with the Pope.  Therefore, someone who is a "perfect" Buddhist cannot be saved.  Someone who is a perfect Moslem and follows that faith perfectly cannot be saved.  Someone who practices Judaism perfectly cannot be saved.  Someone who is a perfect Protestant cannot be saved no matter the denomination.  Also, someone who follows Eastern Orthodoxy to "perfection" cannot be saved because they allow contraception and divorce...which are two mortal sins that will damn someone to hell.  Therefore, if you follow the Catholic faith perfectly, through the belief in her dogmas, sacraments and teachings you will be saved.  Yes...not an easy task.  Also, I have to believe that there has to be some kind of hope for those who would never know the faith.  Think of those people born in tribes who were born in the jungles and had no idea what Christianity was, the concept of God and the saving grace of our Lord.  Are they automatically damned just by mere circumstance?  I believe that the Lord will judge them in his own way but that doesn't mean that I should not bring the faith to that person.  I cannot say that they will be saved because I do not know.  In other words, the only guarantee of salvation is through the Catholic Church.
[-] The following 1 user Likes Peter S's post:
  • Augustinian
Reply
#12
(04-15-2019, 04:09 PM)Peter S Wrote: Therefore, someone who is a "perfect" Buddhist cannot be saved.  Someone who is a perfect Moslem and follows that faith perfectly cannot be saved.  Someone who practices Judaism perfectly cannot be saved.  Someone who is a perfect Protestant cannot be saved no matter the denomination.  Also, someone who follows Eastern Orthodoxy to "perfection" cannot be saved ...

Absolutely true.

One of the fundamental failures in those who wish to minimize the dogma (or deny it), is that think that people are saved in other religions and because of what those religions offer.

Rather, if they are somehow saved by a miracle of grace, through the merits of Jesus Christ which he has entrusted to the treasury of merit he gave to His only Bride, the Catholic Church because they are applied in some extraordinary way which we cannot know in any case without some special revelation (which God does not usually grant us), it will be despite their false religion, not because of it.

False religions lead people to Hell, like jumping off a cliff leads to death.

If someone miraculously survives a suicide attempt, we don't say he is still living because he jumped off a cliff. We say he is living despite the fact that he jumped off a cliff. We say he guardian angel was working overtime. That God protected him from a death by some special grace.

If someone who is not a visible member of the Catholic Church somehow gets to heaven, we cannot say it will be because he was not Catholic, but despite this. It will be only because God decided to give some extraordinary means to that particular soul. We will say that God protected him from a damnation by some special grace of conversion.

Just like as a rule cliff jumping lead to death, false religions lead to spiritual death. One exception here or there does not change that.
[-] The following 5 users Like MagisterMusicae's post:
  • Augustinian, In His Love, jovan66102, MyLady, SeeTheLight
Reply
#13
How I've come to understand it, the question of the salvation of those in other religions ultimately comes down to what faith is.

Faith properly orders our relationship to God: "By faith, man completely submits his intellect and his will to God. (CCC 143).

Because of this, faith is necessary for salvation:

CCC
Quote:161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"43

Faith is "a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed." (CCC 150).  In particular, this means faith in Christ, since Christ "is the Father's one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one" (CCC 65); "what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son" (CCC 65, quoting St. John of the Cross).

Even if in good conscience, people in non-Christian religions cannot have faith--they simply do not believe what God has revealed.  Their belief is merely "religious experience still in search of the absolute truth and still lacking assent to God who reveals himself" and therefore "the distinction between theological faith and belief in the other religions, must be firmly held." (Dominus Iesus 7).

Since they lack faith, persons who remain in such a situation until death could not be saved.  However, we do acknowledge that, for those in good conscience seeking to follow the truth, "in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him." (CCC 848)

But even if one has faith in Christ, deliberately denying any revealed truth (heresy) destroys faith altogether, since one is no longer assenting to God the revealer, but trusting one's own judgment:  "Since faith is one, it must be professed in all its purity and integrity." (Lumen Fidei 48).  On the flip side, because faith is one, if one has faith in Christ--who is the fullness of revelation--faith is not destroyed by innocent ignorance about the various articles of faith:  "there is no difference in the faith of 'those able to discourse of it at length' and 'those who speak but little', between the greater and the less: the first cannot increase the faith, nor the second diminish it." (Lumen Fidei 47, quoting St. Irenaeus).  

In a nutshell there is no salvation outside the Church because the Church is that communion of faith and charity, and without those, one cannot be saved.  But while there is no salvation outside the Church, everyone is given the means of partaking of that salvation.
[Image: catherinesiena-1.jpg]
[-] The following 1 user Likes SaintSebastian's post:
  • Bonaventure
Reply
#14
A correction to one of my previous posts: I just read that the desire for Baptism must be animated by perfect charity in order to be BoD, according to Cardinal Cushing.
Reply
#15
(04-13-2019, 07:16 PM)Blind Horus Wrote: It was sad when she, Mother Angelica, stopped wearing her crucifix, an mayhaps even be part of the reason for her organization going south.

Funny things, cameras, how they change human dynamics.

Surely the powers-that-be were constantly trying to oppress, control, and even cajole her, (and her employees), through nefarious means completely unknown to the uninitiated.

I would treat the woman gently if I were you, BC.

Certainly.  She did a lot of good.  I personally like her very much.

There is just a lot of confusion even among the best of Catholics today, because of the failure of modern Rome to properly defend and explain this doctrine.
[-] The following 1 user Likes BC's post:
  • Blind Horus
Reply
#16
(04-15-2019, 04:09 PM)Peter S Wrote:  Also, I have to believe that there has to be some kind of hope for those who would never know the faith.  Think of those people born in tribes who were born in the jungles and had no idea what Christianity was, the concept of God and the saving grace of our Lord.  Are they automatically damned just by mere circumstance?  I believe that the Lord will judge them in his own way but that doesn't mean that I should not bring the faith to that person.  I cannot say that they will be saved because I do not know.  In other words, the only guarantee of salvation is through the Catholic Church.

This is precisely the questioned that so bothered the Saints.  They held no possibility of salvation for any heathens outside of getting baptized and becoming Christians.  

Missionary work was deadly serious and urgent.  Their answers should send an absolute chill through our spines.

Who has the backbone to talk like this today?

St. Isaac Jogues: “Although, in all probability, I could escape [from the Iroquois] either through the Europeans or through the other savages living around us, if I should wish it, I decided to live on this cross on which Our Lord had fixed me in company with Himself, and to die with His grace helping me… Who could instruct the prisoners who were being constantly brought in?  Who could baptize them when they were dying, and strengthen them in their torments?  Who could pour the sacred waters on the heads of the children?  Who could look after the salvation of the adults who were dying, and after the instruction of those in good health?  Indeed, I believe that it happened not without a singular providence of the Divine Goodness, that I should have fallen into the hands of these very savages…These savages, I must confess, unwillingly and reluctantly have thus far spared me, by the will of God, so that thus through me, although unworthy, they might be instructed, they might believe, and be baptized, as many of them as are preordained for eternal life.”..... there is no doubt but that we arrived where God was leading us for the salvation of a predestined soul which awaited nothing but our arrival

Also, here is St. Francis Xavier, Apostle to the Asians:

St. Francis Xavier, May, 1546: “Here there are altogether seven towns of Christians, all of which I went through and baptized all the newborn infants and the children not yet baptized.  A great many of them died soon after their baptism, so that it was clear enough that their life had only been preserved by God until the entrance to eternal life should be opened to them.”

St. Francis Xavier, Dec. 31, 1543: “There is now in these parts [of India] a very large number of persons who have only one reason for not becoming Christians, and that is that there is no one to make them Christians.  It often comes into my mind to go round all the Universities of Europe, and especially that of Paris, crying out everywhere like a madman, and saying to all the learned men there whose learning is so much greater than their charity, ‘Ah! What a multitude of souls is through your fault shut out of heaven and falling into hell!’…

When St. Francis Xavier was preaching in Japan, his listeners raised the problem of the invincible ignorance of their ancestors:

The principal trouble of those men of good will before they received the light of faith was inability to reconcile the infinite goodness and mercy of God with the fact that He had not made Himself known to them and to their ancestors before the coming of St. Francis. If it was true, as Francis taught, that all those who did not adore the true God went to Hell, then their ancestors must have gone there, even though they had been given no opportunity by God of realizing their duty to Him.....One of the things that most of all pains and torments these Japanese is, that we teach them that the prison of hell is irrevocably shut, so that there is no egress therefrom. For they grieve over the fate of their departed children, of their parents and relatives, and they often show their grief by their tears. So they ask us if there is any hope, any way to free them by prayer from that eternal misery, and I am obliged to answer that there is absolutely none. Their grief at this affects and torments them wonderfully; they almost pine away with sorrow. But there is this good thing about their trouble---it makes one hope that they will all be the more laborious for their own salvation, lest they like their forefathers, should be condemned to everlasting punishment. They often ask if God cannot take their fathers out of hell, and why their punishment must never have an end. We gave them a satisfactory answer, but they did not cease to grieve over the misfortune of their relatives; and I can hardly restrain my tears sometimes at seeing men so dear to my heart suffer such intense pain about a thing which is already done with and can never be undone.......

“‘Our Lord helped us to deliver them from this terrible misgiving [said Francis]. We gave them very good reasons for holding that the law of God was imprinted on men’s hearts from the beginning. Before even the law of the Buddhists came from China to Japan, the Japanese, their ancestors, knew that it was wrong and wicked to commit murder, to steal, to bear false witness, or to break any other of the Ten Commandments, and their consciences smote them if they did so, proving that they knew the commandments of God without having been taught them except by the Creator of all peoples.'” Fr. James Broderick, S.J., Saint Francis Xavier , The Wicklow Press, New York, 1952, pp. 437, 438; n. 1, Schurhammer, Epistolae S. Francisi Xaverii, 2:262-267.

St. Francis de Sales on the fate of the Japanese before Francis Xavier came:

“But concerning them that remain in the sleep of sin: Oh! what good reason they have to lament, groan, weep and say: woe the day! for they are in the most lamentable of cases; yet they have no reason to grieve or complain, save about themselves, who despised, yea rebelled against, the light; who were untractable to invitations, and obstinate against inspirations; so that it is their own malice alone they must ever curse and reproach, since they themselves are the sole authors of their ruin, the sole workers of their damnation. So the Japanese complaining to the Blessed Francis Xavier their Apostle, that God Who had had so much care of other nations, seemed to have forgotten their predecessors, not having given them the knowledge of Himself, for want of which they must have been lost:

the man of God answered them that the divine natural law was engraven in the hearts of all mortals, and that if their forerunners had observed it, the light of heaven would without doubt have illuminated them, as on the contrary, having violated it, they deserved damnation. An apostolic answer of an apostolic man, and resembling the reason given by the great Apostle of the loss of the ancient Gentiles, whom he calls inexcusable, for that having known good they followed evil; for it is in a word that which he inculcates in the first chapter of his Epistle to the Romans. Misery upon misery to those who do not acknowledge that their misery comes from their malice.”  Treatise on the Love of God , translated by Fr. Henry Benedict Mackey, O.S.B., The Newman Book Shop, Wesminster, MD, 1942, p. 178.

What this should make us do, is to fall on our knees and in tears thank God He has chosen us with the unmerited blessing of giving us what we need to escape Hell.

As St. Alphonsus Ligouri said:

“We were so fortunate to be born in the bosom of the Roman Church, in Christian and Catholic kingdoms, a grace that has not been granted to the greater part of men, who are born among idolaters, Mohammedans, or heretics. [...] How thankful we ought to be, then, to Jesus Christ for the gift of faith! What would have become of us if we had been born in Asia, in Africa, in America, or in the midsts of heretics and schismatics? He who does not believe is lost. He who does not believe shall be condemned. And thus, probably, we also would have been lost.”

“All infidels and heretics are surely on the way to being lost. What an obligation we owe God for causing us to be born not only after the coming of Jesus Christ, but also in countries where the true faith reigns! I thank Thee, O Lord, for this. Woe to me if, after so many transgressions, it had been my fate to live in the midst of infidels or heretics!”

“In the Great Deluge in the days of Noah, nearly all mankind perished, eight persons alone being saved in the Ark. In our days a deluge, not of water but of sins, continually inundates the earth, and out of this deluge very few escape. Scarcely anyone is saved.”

The majority of the clergy today can not hold a candle to the great clarity of Faith of our ancestors, as they promise easy salvation to non Catholics and leave them in damnation.  They give lip service to the saints, but do not share the same faith of the saints.
[-] The following 1 user Likes BC's post:
  • Augustinian
Reply
#17
What's truly sad is that some of us have to discuss these questions among ourselves because we're not being taught elsewhere.
[-] The following 2 users Like In His Love's post:
  • Augustinian, SeeTheLight
Reply
#18
(04-17-2019, 08:57 AM)BC Wrote: “In the Great Deluge in the days of Noah, nearly all mankind perished, eight persons alone being saved in the Ark. In our days a deluge, not of water but of sins, continually inundates the earth, and out of this deluge very few escape. Scarcely anyone is saved.”

This is one of those hard truths which has lead me close to despair at times. So many souls, possibly including my own, are damned to hell by their own choices. And the worst part of it, is no one listens when you try to talk with them about the faith. You're looked at as crazy, even amongst fellow Catholics.

At times, I am suffocating under the realization that I may fail to save my wife and children.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
[-] The following 1 user Likes Augustinian's post:
  • SeeTheLight
Reply
#19
(04-17-2019, 08:57 AM)BC Wrote:
(04-15-2019, 04:09 PM)Peter S Wrote:  Also, I have to believe that there has to be some kind of hope for those who would never know the faith.  Think of those people born in tribes who were born in the jungles and had no idea what Christianity was, the concept of God and the saving grace of our Lord.  Are they automatically damned just by mere circumstance?  I believe that the Lord will judge them in his own way but that doesn't mean that I should not bring the faith to that person.  I cannot say that they will be saved because I do not know.  In other words, the only guarantee of salvation is through the Catholic Church.

This is precisely the questioned that so bothered the Saints.  They held no possibility of salvation for any heathens outside of getting baptized and becoming Christians.  

Missionary work was deadly serious and urgent.  Their answers should send an absolute chill through our spines.

Who has the backbone to talk like this today?

St. Isaac Jogues: “Although, in all probability, I could escape [from the Iroquois] either through the Europeans or through the other savages living around us, if I should wish it, I decided to live on this cross on which Our Lord had fixed me in company with Himself, and to die with His grace helping me… Who could instruct the prisoners who were being constantly brought in?  Who could baptize them when they were dying, and strengthen them in their torments?  Who could pour the sacred waters on the heads of the children?  Who could look after the salvation of the adults who were dying, and after the instruction of those in good health?  Indeed, I believe that it happened not without a singular providence of the Divine Goodness, that I should have fallen into the hands of these very savages…These savages, I must confess, unwillingly and reluctantly have thus far spared me, by the will of God, so that thus through me, although unworthy, they might be instructed, they might believe, and be baptized, as many of them as are preordained for eternal life.”..... there is no doubt but that we arrived where God was leading us for the salvation of a predestined soul which awaited nothing but our arrival

Also, here is St. Francis Xavier, Apostle to the Asians:

St. Francis Xavier, May, 1546: “Here there are altogether seven towns of Christians, all of which I went through and baptized all the newborn infants and the children not yet baptized.  A great many of them died soon after their baptism, so that it was clear enough that their life had only been preserved by God until the entrance to eternal life should be opened to them.”

St. Francis Xavier, Dec. 31, 1543: “There is now in these parts [of India] a very large number of persons who have only one reason for not becoming Christians, and that is that there is no one to make them Christians.  It often comes into my mind to go round all the Universities of Europe, and especially that of Paris, crying out everywhere like a madman, and saying to all the learned men there whose learning is so much greater than their charity, ‘Ah! What a multitude of souls is through your fault shut out of heaven and falling into hell!’…

When St. Francis Xavier was preaching in Japan, his listeners raised the problem of the invincible ignorance of their ancestors:

The principal trouble of those men of good will before they received the light of faith was inability to reconcile the infinite goodness and mercy of God with the fact that He had not made Himself known to them and to their ancestors before the coming of St. Francis. If it was true, as Francis taught, that all those who did not adore the true God went to Hell, then their ancestors must have gone there, even though they had been given no opportunity by God of realizing their duty to Him.....One of the things that most of all pains and torments these Japanese is, that we teach them that the prison of hell is irrevocably shut, so that there is no egress therefrom. For they grieve over the fate of their departed children, of their parents and relatives, and they often show their grief by their tears. So they ask us if there is any hope, any way to free them by prayer from that eternal misery, and I am obliged to answer that there is absolutely none. Their grief at this affects and torments them wonderfully; they almost pine away with sorrow. But there is this good thing about their trouble---it makes one hope that they will all be the more laborious for their own salvation, lest they like their forefathers, should be condemned to everlasting punishment. They often ask if God cannot take their fathers out of hell, and why their punishment must never have an end. We gave them a satisfactory answer, but they did not cease to grieve over the misfortune of their relatives; and I can hardly restrain my tears sometimes at seeing men so dear to my heart suffer such intense pain about a thing which is already done with and can never be undone.......

“‘Our Lord helped us to deliver them from this terrible misgiving [said Francis]. We gave them very good reasons for holding that the law of God was imprinted on men’s hearts from the beginning. Before even the law of the Buddhists came from China to Japan, the Japanese, their ancestors, knew that it was wrong and wicked to commit murder, to steal, to bear false witness, or to break any other of the Ten Commandments, and their consciences smote them if they did so, proving that they knew the commandments of God without having been taught them except by the Creator of all peoples.'” Fr. James Broderick, S.J., Saint Francis Xavier , The Wicklow Press, New York, 1952, pp. 437, 438; n. 1, Schurhammer, Epistolae S. Francisi Xaverii, 2:262-267.

St. Francis de Sales on the fate of the Japanese before Francis Xavier came:

“But concerning them that remain in the sleep of sin: Oh! what good reason they have to lament, groan, weep and say: woe the day! for they are in the most lamentable of cases; yet they have no reason to grieve or complain, save about themselves, who despised, yea rebelled against, the light; who were untractable to invitations, and obstinate against inspirations; so that it is their own malice alone they must ever curse and reproach, since they themselves are the sole authors of their ruin, the sole workers of their damnation. So the Japanese complaining to the Blessed Francis Xavier their Apostle, that God Who had had so much care of other nations, seemed to have forgotten their predecessors, not having given them the knowledge of Himself, for want of which they must have been lost:

the man of God answered them that the divine natural law was engraven in the hearts of all mortals, and that if their forerunners had observed it, the light of heaven would without doubt have illuminated them, as on the contrary, having violated it, they deserved damnation. An apostolic answer of an apostolic man, and resembling the reason given by the great Apostle of the loss of the ancient Gentiles, whom he calls inexcusable, for that having known good they followed evil; for it is in a word that which he inculcates in the first chapter of his Epistle to the Romans. Misery upon misery to those who do not acknowledge that their misery comes from their malice.”  Treatise on the Love of God , translated by Fr. Henry Benedict Mackey, O.S.B., The Newman Book Shop, Wesminster, MD, 1942, p. 178.

What this should make us do, is to fall on our knees and in tears thank God He has chosen us with the unmerited blessing of giving us what we need to escape Hell.

As St. Alphonsus Ligouri said:

“We were so fortunate to be born in the bosom of the Roman Church, in Christian and Catholic kingdoms, a grace that has not been granted to the greater part of men, who are born among idolaters, Mohammedans, or heretics. [...] How thankful we ought to be, then, to Jesus Christ for the gift of faith! What would have become of us if we had been born in Asia, in Africa, in America, or in the midsts of heretics and schismatics? He who does not believe is lost. He who does not believe shall be condemned. And thus, probably, we also would have been lost.”

“All infidels and heretics are surely on the way to being lost. What an obligation we owe God for causing us to be born not only after the coming of Jesus Christ, but also in countries where the true faith reigns! I thank Thee, O Lord, for this. Woe to me if, after so many transgressions, it had been my fate to live in the midst of infidels or heretics!”

“In the Great Deluge in the days of Noah, nearly all mankind perished, eight persons alone being saved in the Ark. In our days a deluge, not of water but of sins, continually inundates the earth, and out of this deluge very few escape. Scarcely anyone is saved.”

The majority of the clergy today can not hold a candle to the great clarity of Faith of our ancestors, as they promise easy salvation to non Catholics and leave them in damnation.  They give lip service to the saints, but do not share the same faith of the saints.

This is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to me in remaining Catholic.  It is when I consider this doctrine that I am most moved to convert to Orthodoxy, and it is by this capriciousness of the Roman god, and the evil in him it must necessarily represent, if true, that causes me to see remarriage and the use of contraception as nothing in comparison.
Reply
#20
The most charitable thing I can come up with in response, Melkite, skimming over your post, is that you are very confused.

I sympathize with your pain, because I know you've been traumatized, but you're taking it out on the One who wants to heal you of all your pain and restore you, and that will only bring you further pain.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)