Resurrection Appearances.
#31
(08-09-2019, 01:21 AM)St.Eliza Wrote:
(08-08-2019, 11:37 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: I'd direct you to Volume 1, no. 17 ("The Disobedience of Eve and the Obedience of Mary"). It has a date of 5 March 1944 :

In Genesis Eve is... [- snip - (ignorant and offensive interpretation of what Jesus said in Valtorta on Eve)]...

So who hasn't read the works?

Wowee, another coincidence! Pacwa happened to choose that same little excerpt, on the same page, out of 15,000 pages, to make the same erroneous point.  Now what are the odds of that! Strange indeed!

Your offensive "plenty of more smut like that" statement truly turns my stomach. I would feel sicker - but it was more sickening the first time I heard it, when Pacwa wrote it in that same widely circulated paper you say you never read! Yes, that is an additional point plagiarized from Pacwa. Wow.

Still claiming you are unfamiliar with the Pacwa's singular work on Valtorta? That is too-far fetched to be true. 
Which, by the way, EWTN seems to have removed from their website! I wonder why?  

I do not want to discuss theology with you, Magister, because:

1. You just like to argue and your goal is to win an argument, not to arrive at truth. 
2. You are clearly not candid and straightforward (besides above, see also below*).
3. There are LOTS of excellent theologians and you are not one.
4. Last but not least, you neither kind nor a person of good will.

If you really care about theology beyond what serves you personally - and I think you don't; I think you care about posing and arguing - then, here is a link to a solid theological discussion addressed to a Valtorta detrator concerning the the fall of Adam and Eve and if there are any sexual connotations to the fall:
 http://www.valtorta.org.au/refutation-of...ticle.html

So wrestle with that. 

I am totally confident that I can find a Valtorta-support theologian with far better credentials and reputation than any Valtorta-detracter theologian you can come up with.  
__________________

*You said, "So who hasn't read the works?" - Why would would you attempt to imply you have? It's stupid! And truly disingenuous.
__________________

Links analyzing and rebutting Pacwa's old uninformed mess of a critique:
http://www.maria-valtorta.net/mitch_response1.html
http://www.mariavaltortawebring.com/Page...ndence.htm

"By their fruits you shall know them."

Eliza, you have now on this platform called a priest a "sexual predator" solely on allegations and not backed down or retracted this. You have now in defense of yet another obsession reacted by calling someone a liar and questioning their integrity. 

These are not the actions of a Christian. These are evil fruits and if you don't stop it your risk your own soul. You need to be told that, clearly. 

Such rash judgement, pride and lack of charity are just as sinful on the Internet as in real life.

Take a breath, (I think a break from the Internet for a while, too, because clearly it is unhealthy for your), make a good confession and try to have some stability and peace of soul (pray for it), and for the sake of that soul of yours burn that diabolical work you are promoting and leave it behind.

I will have a Mass offered for you, and will offer my next Rosary for you as well.
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#32
Here is a quote from Father Pacwa's long-ago statement, the very argument Magister just presented, followed by refutations by those more scholarly, eminent and respected than anyone any of us knows:

Pacwa writesThere are theological errors, as when "Jesus says" (vol. 1, p. 30) that Eve's temptation consisted in arousing her flesh, as the serpent sensuously "caressed" her. While she "began the sin by herself," she "accomplished it with her companion."... Valtorta may claim the first sin was sexual, but Scripture does not.


Response (found in 2nd link I just gave):

...Saint Augustine (Bishop of Hippo) argued that original sin had its beginning in sexual desire, and that the Eden account should be taken both literally and symbolically.

...Saint Bridget of Sweden wrote nearly 1,000 pages of Private Revelations with full Church Approval, which also clarify the fall of Adam and Eve.  Saint Bridget's descriptions sound very much like Valtorta's: "Sensually the devil aroused them".

In Maria Valtorta's descriptions, the serpent didn't caress Eve in a physical sense, it was done with sinful ideas, putting thoughts and temptations in her mind. 


.....
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#33
Magister, Please back off.  You have been unkind to me in countless ways here, and it's TOO MUCH. I need some space.

I will keep reading Valtorta's work, particularly this great gift of God for mankind, Poem of the ManGod, which has also been a precious, cherished gift of God to me. He gave it to me at a time when my life became devastatingly difficult on many fronts, one of which was due to the losses in the fallout of becoming Catholic. But you can't outgive God, and He gave me this gift. A good gift, a great and beautiful gift, a sustaining gift, so great a gift that I would have chosen the onslaught of crosses all over again for this gift. It made it all worthwhile. Because it was greater than all my greatest, now-dashed hopes and dreams. God gives GOOD GIFTS, and I thank Him, and I praise Him. Thank you, thank you, thank you, Jesus.

I shared about it here in this thread because I wanted to share my joy in it. I felt a need to get away from all the ugliness and focus on something of joy. So this conversation with you has been most unwelcome. Especially since I have not recovered from the last extremely unpleasant conversation with you yet! I came to Fisheaters for some very much needed peaceful fellowship, and you are pursuing something opposite of that, and I don't want it. 

If you are actually offering a rosary and a Mass for me, I am completely surprised. Thank you very much. That would make all this grief you have given me here more than worth it. 
I will offer my a whole rosary tomorrow for you and your intentions.

____________________


Those who have approved/endorsed/praised the Poem of the Man-God include:

- Pope Pius XII

- 24 Extremely Learned Clerics or
       Doctors of Theology/Divinity/Canon Law

- 5 Cardinals

- 7 Members or Consultants of the Holy
     Office/Congregation for the Causes of Saints

- 14 Archbishops

-  7 Saints/Blesseds/Venerables/Servants of God

- 28 Regular Bishops (representing 11 countries)

- 31 Doctors and University Professors


A detailed list of the above advocates, and more, are in this link (be sure to scroll down): http://www.bardstown.com/~brchrys/List-o...rovals.pdf
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#34
Now time for something beautiful.  Jesus appears, after His Resurrection, to another woman on a road (and another miracle!):

XVI. To a woman of the Sharon plain. 


30 A coast road. Perhaps the one that links Caesarea to Joppa, or another one. I do not 
know. I know that I see a country on one side and the sea on the opposite side, a deep- 
blue sea beyond the yellowish line of the shore. The road is certainly a Roman 
thoroughfare, as is evidenced by its paving. 

A woman in tears is going along it in the early hours of a clear morning. The day has 
just dawned. The woman must be very tired, because now and again she stops and sits 
down on a milestone or on the road. Then she gets up and proceeds, as if something 
were urging her to go on, notwithstanding her great tiredness. 

Jesus, a wayfarer enveloped in a mantle, sets off beside her. The woman does not look 
at Him. She proceeds absorbed in her grief. Jesus asks her: «Why are you weeping, 
woman? Where are you coming from? And where are you going all alone?» 

«I am coming from Jerusalem and I am going back home.» 

«Far?» 

«Half way between Joppa and Caesarea.» 

«On foot?» 

«In the valley, before Modin, some highwaymen took my donkey and what was on it.» 

«It was unwise of you to go all alone. It is not customary to come by oneself at 
Passover. » 

«I did not come for Passover. I remained at home, because I have, and I hope I still 
have him, a boy who is ill. My husband had gone with other people. I let him go ahead 
and four days later I set off. Because I said: "He is certainly in Jerusalem for Passover. I 
will look for Him." I was somewhat afraid. But I said: "I am not doing anything wrong. 
God sees. I believe. I know that He is good. He will not reject me, because... "» 

She stops, as if she were frightened, and casts a quick glance at the man who is walking 
beside her, and who is so covered up that one can hardly see his eyes, the unmistakable 
eyes of Jesus. 

31 «Why have you become silent? You are afraid of Me. Do you think that I am an 
enemy of Him Whom you were looking for? Because you were looking for the Master 
of Nazareth, to ask Him to come to your house and cure the boy while your husband 
was away...» 

«I see that you are a prophet. It is so. But when I arrived in town, the Master was dead.» 
Tears choke her... 

«He has risen. Do you not believe it?» 

«I know. I believe it. But I... But I... For some days I hoped to see Him myself... They 
say that He has shown Himself to some people. And I delayed my departure... every 
day a torture, because... my boy is so ill... my heart was divided... whether I should go 
to comfort him at his death... or stay looking for the Master... I did not expect Him to 
come to my house, but to promise to cure him.» 

«And would you have believed? Do you think that from afar?...» 

«I believe. Oh! if He had said to me: "Go in peace. Your son will recover", I should not 
have doubted. But I do not deserve it, because.. .» she weeps, pressing her veil against 
her lips, so as to be prevented from speaking. 

«Because your husband is one of the accusers and crucifiers of Jesus Christ. But Jesus 
Christ is the Messiah. He is God. And God is just, woman. He does not punish an 
innocent person because of a guilty one. He does not torture a mother because a father 
is a sinner. Jesus Christ is Mercy alive.. .» 

«Oh! are you perhaps one of His apostles? Perhaps you know where He is? You... 
Perhaps He sent you to me to tell me this. He has heard, He has seen my grief, my faith, 
and He has sent you to me as the Most High sent the archangel Raphael to Tobias. Tell 
me whether it is so, and although I am so tired as to be feverish, I will retrace my steps 
to look for the Lord.» 

«I am not an apostle. But the apostles have remained in Jerusalem for many days after 
His Resurrection... » 

«That is true. I could have asked them.» 

«So. They continue the Master. » 

«I did not think they could work miracles. » 

«They have still worked them...» 

«But now... I was told that one only remained faithful, and I did not think... » 

«Yes. Your husband told you so, sneering at you in his frenzy of false triumpher. But I 
tell you that man can sin, because God alone is perfect. And he can repent. And if he 
does repent, his strength grows, and God increases His graces in him for his contrition. 
Did the Most High Lord not forgive David?» 

32 «But who are you? Who are you who speak so gently and wisely, if you are not an 
apostle? An angel perhaps? The angel of my child. He has perhaps breathed his last and 
you have come to prepare me...» 

Jesus lets His mantle fall off His head and face, and passing from the humble aspect of 
a common pilgrim to His magnificence of God-Man, risen from the dead, with kind 
solemnity He says: «It is I. The Messiah crucified in vain. I am the Resurrection and the 
Life. Go, woman. Your son lives, because I have rewarded your faith. Your son is 
cured. Because, if the Rabbi of Nazareth has finished His mission, the Immanuel 
continues His until the end of time for all those who have faith, hope and charity in the 
One and Triune God, of Whom the incarnate Word is one Person, Who through divine 
love left Heaven to come to teach, to suffer, to die in order to give the Life to men. Go 
in peace, woman. And be strong in faith, because the time has come when in a family 
the husband will be against his wife, the father against his sons, and these against him, 
out of hatred or love for Me. But blessed are those whom persecution will not tear away 
from My Way.» 

He blesses her and disappears. 
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#35
(08-08-2019, 09:42 PM)St.Eliza Wrote:
(08-08-2019, 09:05 PM)Blind Horus Wrote: Father Pacwa is educated beyond his intelligence. 

I think you could be right on that one.


Quote:It has given him a cruel heart.

Oh, wow. I guess I turned my back on Fr.P after his Valtorta ridiculousness so I have not seen enough of him to see whatever you see there. I am sorry to hear it, since I assume you have some reason for saying so. Even though I lost respect for him over the Valtorta matter, that is not as terrible as what you have said here.  :(   I am not Q'ing you, as I am sure you have a reason.  Just sad to hear it can be said by someone.

I felt so bad about the Father Corapi thing back then.  I think becoming a celebrity priest may not be the best thing for a every priest. And the devil really is after the priests in particular. They do need prayers.

Its not just Father Mitch with a cruel heart in this world of gloomweavers,  yet him in particular,  'cause he was a sight, wasn't he? With the booming voice, the cowboy boots, and a face only a mother could love. But the Trees of Light have been wounded, and the poison is affecting us all.
Oh, where are the snows of yesteryear!
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#36
(08-09-2019, 10:21 AM)Blind Horus Wrote:
(08-08-2019, 09:42 PM)St.Eliza Wrote:
(08-08-2019, 09:05 PM)Blind Horus Wrote: Father Pacwa is educated beyond his intelligence. 

I think you could be right on that one.


Quote:It has given him a cruel heart.

Oh, wow. I guess I turned my back on Fr.P after his Valtorta ridiculousness so I have not seen enough of him to see whatever you see there. I am sorry to hear it, since I assume you have some reason for saying so. Even though I lost respect for him over the Valtorta matter, that is not as terrible as what you have said here.  :(   I am not Q'ing you, as I am sure you have a reason.  Just sad to hear it can be said by someone.

I felt so bad about the Father Corapi thing back then.  I think becoming a celebrity priest may not be the best thing for a every priest. And the devil really is after the priests in particular. They do need prayers.

Its not just Father Mitch with a cruel heart in this world of gloomweavers,  yet him in particular,  'cause he was a sight, wasn't he? With the booming voice, the cowboy boots, and a face only a mother could love. But the Trees of Light have been wounded, and the poison is affecting us all.

Well, what is it about Father Pacwa?  Why do you say he has a cruel heart? It is a strong statement so I am wondering. 

And who had cowboy boots?? I am confused about who you are referring to there.
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#37
That's alot of questions
If my poem didn't clarify 
I am at a lost for words.

I liked the 3 gospel stories
Oh, where are the snows of yesteryear!
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#38
(08-09-2019, 03:59 AM)St.Eliza Wrote: Magister, Please back off.  You have been unkind to me in countless ways here, and it's TOO MUCH. I need some space.

I will keep reading Valtorta's work, particularly this great gift of God for mankind, Poem of the ManGod, which has also been a precious, cherished gift of God to me. He gave it to me at a time when my life became devastatingly difficult on many fronts, one of which was due to the losses in the fallout of becoming Catholic. But you can't outgive God, and He gave me this gift. A good gift, a great and beautiful gift, a sustaining gift, so great a gift that I would have chosen the onslaught of crosses all over again for this gift. It made it all worthwhile. Because it was greater than all my greatest, now-dashed hopes and dreams. God gives GOOD GIFTS, and I thank Him, and I praise Him. Thank you, thank you, thank you, Jesus.

I shared about it here in this thread because I wanted to share my joy in it. I felt a need to get away from all the ugliness and focus on something of joy. So this conversation with you has been most unwelcome. Especially since I have not recovered from the last extremely unpleasant conversation with you yet! I came to Fisheaters for some very much needed peaceful fellowship, and you are pursuing something opposite of that, and I don't want it. 

If you are actually offering a rosary and a Mass for me, I am completely surprised. Thank you very much. That would make all this grief you have given me here more than worth it. 
I will offer my a whole rosary tomorrow for you and your intentions.

Eliza, why would you be surprised that I would be praying for you?

You desperately need help if you are going to continue to slander people on this forum. You need the grace to make a good confession and apologize and put your spiritual life in order.

You've called me a liar, deceptive, unkind and malicious, all because you don't like my insistence that Valtorta is the devil's work. It's the exact same patter I saw with Steve Austin (the guy you quote in defense against the points about Valtorta's smut). I knew him well. I won't go into details on what I know, but suffice it to say, he never studied theology, let along philosophy, yet holds himself out as an expert. He is nothing of the sort.

It is same wicked fruit you show that results which is a classic sign of the devil.

It starts with thinking that the Gospels and the spiritual works of Saints are not sufficient to help devotion, so instead of pursuing the normal progression in the spiritual life instead curiosity pushes one towards this work of fiction is consulted. The theological errors and grotesque portrait of Christ warps the Faith of the reader. The reader becomes obsessed with it. Someone questions them on it, and the devotee's conscience is troubled, then they lash out calumniating.

Valtorta replaces the Gospel, and the Fathers, and the Church which put it on the Index of Forbidden Books.

The only proper response aside from calling you out for your unChristian behavior (which seems not to have any effect), is to pray and do penance for you. So that is what I will do.

If you ever do want to retract and apologize, I will happily and graciously accept without holding the matter over your head anymore.

(I would rather not reply to this, in fact, but you deleted your posts from the other thread in which you ironically claim you were unjustly attacked, someone needs to preserve the record)
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