Do you believe in Indulgences ?
#11
Well said! You put such a big smile on my face and warmed my soul with your response Xavier! Thank you for your response!!!
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#12
Of course I believe in them. However, they aren't a regular feature of my spiritual life. 

What it really means to have a complete detachment from all sin is something I've never understood, I don't know how one could have even moral certainty of such a thing.
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#13
Quote:... (300 days every time said) ...

While I dislike the reformulation of indulgences by Paul VI (because everything had to be new, you know), especially it's reduction of the number of plenary indulgences that could be had per day and specifically indulgenced acts (in favor of expanding and basically making everything a partial indulgence), there is one argument I find somewhat convincing.

Firstly, no longer are such prayers given this kind of indulgence. Often you find in traditional Catholic literature such things as "300 days" or "10 quarantines" or the like, and simply put, that's incorrect. These may be partially indulgenced, but there is no longer a set time period quantity attached.

Secondly, though, what did "300 days" mean?

Most people will say, it's 300 days off your time in Purgatory, but they would be wrong. That is how most Catholic understood it. Rather, the merit gained and debt of temporal punishment repaid was equivalent to 300 days of penance in the Early Church (e.g. 7.5 strict Lents).

The idea was to emphasize which prayers were more highly encouraged by the Popes, but as a result it became calculations, especially when it was all misunderstood. It also became formulaic and in the privately pietistic world that did not see the Liturgy as the foundation and essential devotion (but just something you sat at while you pushed your beads). That's a generalization, and surely many did use these well, and have a devotion to the Liturgy, but it does not seem that was a widespread thing.

Chalk it up to a lack of Catechesis, but just a partial/plenary division was what Paul VI proposed.

It is one solution, and there is a good argument for it, though I think it is not a good solution. The idea of indulgences is that the Church is pulling from her treasury of merit (which was put on deposit by Jesus Christ), and adding to your action some amount. Just like a banker, however, some specific amount is given. It could be "the whole debt" or it could be $10,000, but the banker will specify. If you asked a banker for some money and he said, "I'll give you some," it does not seem to be specific enough to be a legally binding contract.

In short, there was a good idea behind the change, but a bad solution.
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#14
I think they're great! I try to remember to try get a plenary when I meet the requirements for communion and confession.   My parish is helpful in reminding us when key ones in the calendar come along.
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#15
(05-27-2019, 08:09 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: Scott Hahn in a talk on them said something like "they are both a minefield and a swamp".  Then went on to try and make sense of them.

I'm not a fan.  I have read some on them and they turn it into simple penance, or formation to try and make sense of it.

It's just not my favorite teaching.  I have read a perspective on it from I think an Eastern Catholic stating that the conclusions go way beyond the evidence.

Getting an indulgence for following Pope Francis on social media pretty much put the concept in to the "whatever" category for me.  Not much sacrifice, learning, or anything from that one.

There is an indulgence for following the Pope on social media???  Sarcasm, right???
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#16
I have never been comfortable with the indulgences.
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Seems like you are bargaining with God - if I do this, you will give me that.  If I say these words every day, you will be nice to me when I die.
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No, I don't understand them.  As someone else said, I can see indulgences that involve great effort or sacrifice - a major pilgrimage, for example.  In my thinking, I believe God wants us to love him and worship him in our hearts and souls, but there should be no exchange of benefits, just worshipping God voluntarily, because I do, not because I get something out of it.  
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And yes, I see the contradiction in that, because I do want to go to heaven some day, so in that way, I do want something out if it all.
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I understand that indulgences mean a lot for others and I am glad for them - there is a great variety within our Faith that reaches so many.
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#17
(05-27-2019, 02:51 PM)mpk1987 Wrote: I think they're great! I try to remember to try get a plenary when I meet the requirements for communion and confession.   My parish is helpful in reminding us when key ones in the calendar come along.

Or you could just do the Stations of the Cross, or say a Rosary with someone else. Both are plenary indulgences you can get everyday.
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#18
I’m a little confused.
How can a Catholic “not believe in” Indulgences?
I think it’s the subject line that’s confusing me.
I’m actually unaware of the Manual that’s been put forth.

All this said, I think people perhaps put far too much faith in THEIR RECEIVING a plenary Indulgence.
It sort of strikes me as the Protestant “faith alone” thing whereby your simply having faith in Christ is sufficient to “impute” Christ’s righteousness.  
I believe that was Martin Luther’s big word: “impute”.  Rather than the soul being filled with Sanctifying Grace through the Sacraments, your sins were basically given a coat of paint and all is well.

But maybe what I’m saying is wrong, I really don’t know.  I’m more or less talking out loud.

Here’s a question: under what conditions — if ever —can we be assured that someone’s receiving Last Rites or Extreme Unction got them into Heaven?   My understanding is that there’s a plenary Indulgence attached to Extreme Unction.
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#19
(05-27-2019, 03:57 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(05-27-2019, 02:51 PM)mpk1987 Wrote: I think they're great! I try to remember to try get a plenary when I meet the requirements for communion and confession.   My parish is helpful in reminding us when key ones in the calendar come along.

Or you could just do the Stations of the Cross, or say a Rosary with someone else. Both are plenary indulgences you can get everyday.

Magister, if you could help explain how much value there is in a partial indulgence? I know that the older system was imperfect but to its credit, at least one had an idea of what one was getting by performing a certain devotion. I have always found the partial indulgence idea to be horribly vague. 

Is there any way of gauging whether certain devotions have a "greater" partial indulgence. For instance, I say Rosary alone, and get a partial indulgence. I say the Magnificat and get a partial indulgence. I make the sign of the cross, I get a partial indulgence. Surely one is "worth" more than the other.
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#20
(05-27-2019, 05:58 PM)FultonFan Wrote: Here’s a question: under what conditions — if ever —can we be assured that someone’s receiving Last Rites or Extreme Unction got them into Heaven?   My understanding is that there’s a plenary Indulgence attached to Extreme Unction.

There is a plenary indulgence which can be received at the moment of death by one who has received the Apostolic Blessing. This is a separate rite, given only once during a danger of death, which expressly indicates the indulgence granted in the name of the Pope.

Extreme Unction, itself, forgives sins, but does not necessarily forgive the temporal punishment due to sins. It can, depending on the degree of Charity with which it is received, just as a Communion has the power to do so were it received with a perfect devotion.

Last Rites is often times used to mean Extreme Unction, but properly is the whole series of Confession, Extreme Unction, Communion and the Apostolic Blessing.

As regards the assurance, we can never have absolute certainty of such things (without some divine aid, e.g. verifiable miracles in the case of canonization), just as we can never have absolute certainty we are in the State of Grace. We can have moral certainty (we can be unaware of any unconfessed grave sin, for instance). 

Since only God can arrange that death and Sanctifying Grace occur at the same moment (called Final Perseverance), and nothing we can do can merit this grace, there is never a absolute guarantee even for one who dies just minutes after consciously and devoutly confessing, receiving Communion and Extreme Unction and the Apostolic Blessing. Chances are near 100%, but there is always the chance to consent to a internal grave sin moments before death, and thus lose it all. The Sacraments are there to help protect against this, but it could always happen.

That is why we ought to be praying for this grace. We cannot merit it, but we can and should ask for it.
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