Original Sin, Grace, Immaculate Conception, and the East
#1
In another post, I think it was Magister who said it was OK for the East to have different ideas on Original Sin and Grace - but I can't seem to find that post.

Would anyone care to expand on how the East views these things differently, and yet still in line with Rome?  In the little reading I have done it seems Eastern Catholics have some different views, and they may even not celebrate the Immaculate Conception.
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#2
(06-11-2019, 10:40 PM)JMarkie Boy Wrote: Would anyone care to expand on how the East views these things differently, and yet still in line with Rome?  

Maybe a dedicated Eastern forum would be a better platform for your question?

Seems a lot of threads here as of late have more to do with East as opposed to West, the latter being the basis of this forum.
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#3
Probably. I'll need to register on one and dig deeper there.

A fair assessment - thank you.
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#4
(06-11-2019, 10:51 PM)Bonaventure Wrote:
(06-11-2019, 10:40 PM)JMarkie Boy Wrote: Would anyone care to expand on how the East views these things differently, and yet still in line with Rome?  

Maybe a dedicated Eastern forum would be a better platform for your question?

Seems a lot of threads here as of late have more to do with East as opposed to West, the latter being the basis of this forum.

Yes, I think we've had some good discussions lately, but it is a Roman Catholic forum and probably time to move on.  The host and the members of this site have been very gracious in allowing these discussions, but I'm actually beginning to feel like I've overstayed my welcome here.  

Markie, maybe you should check out the Byzcath forum for some of your questions.  There's also an Orthodox forum (where I normally post) that you could check out as well.  Most forums also have a search function where you can search through any past discussions related to what you're seeking.
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#5
I agree. And thank you to Fisheaters for allowing these discussions. I have been on two other forums where these things would have been shut down, or worse, selectively erased.

So thank you.
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#6
(06-11-2019, 10:51 PM)Bonaventure Wrote:
(06-11-2019, 10:40 PM)JMarkie Boy Wrote: Would anyone care to expand on how the East views these things differently, and yet still in line with Rome?  

Maybe a dedicated Eastern forum would be a better platform for your question?

Seems a lot of threads here as of late have more to do with East as opposed to West, the latter being the basis of this forum.

What's wrong with that?  There has been a general lull in activity here lately, why stamp out fruitful discussion?  I believe Vox created this site for all traditional Catholics and Catholicism, not just the West (although the West is understandably going to take up a bigger portion of it).  There even used to be a whole section of the forum devoted to Eastern Catholicism.  The only reason it was shut down (or the main one I'm aware of, at least) was that too many Orthodox proselytes were coming in and using it as a means to poach away Catholics.
I have resigned myself to the reality that I shall have no peace or joy should I continue to exist for eternity.  The question of deism or Christianity no longer matters.  I hope that Christianity is a farce, and that when I die, my consciousness will cease to exist.  In the meantime, I ask the Theotokos to be at my side at my judgement and ask her to intercede to, as I beg, Christ to have mercy on me and to allow me to cease to exist when I die.
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#7
That's the call of those on this site.  I like the discussion here - a good mix of knowledgeable people.  Would be great if there were an Eastern Catholic section.

In all reality it's every bit as ancient or more so than the Latin.  And I do believe both elements have something the other could benefit from.

Would be very interesting - could it be possible to have a something that was not a debate between East and West, but an active, constructive community building things together?
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#8
(06-12-2019, 09:34 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: I like the discussion here - a good mix of knowledgeable people.  


Mark, once again I'll have to disagree with you. The fact that they still let me post here is direct evidence that this is not a good mix of knowledgeable people.

Quote:Would be very interesting - could it be possible to have a something that was not a debate between East and West, but an active, constructive community building things together?

The Catholic Church?  Big Grin
"Nowadays there are even men who cut their hair to free themselves of the weight of it and they also shave their cheeks. Clearly such men have become slaves of luxurious living and are completely enervated, men who can endure being seen as womanish creatures, hermaphrodites, something which real men would avoid at all costs. How could hair be a burden to men? Unless, of course, one should say that feathers are a burden to birds also." M. Rufus
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#9
The problem is some Eastern Catholics follow the separated EOs wherever they go, rather than maintaining the faith that was common to the two at the time of the unia.  Until very recently, the EOs understood original sin just as we do, while their modern position says we are all "immaculately conceived," but subject only to death and other infirmities.  Their current position is more of a symptom of the modern neo-Palamite movement that has come to dominate most of their churches, which includes a general anti-Latin element, with special disdain for anything associated with St. Augustine.  But original sin was never a point of debate at the Second Council of Lyons or the Council of Florence, when equally and even less substantial points were.

For example, they professed our understanding at their Council of Jerusalem in 1672:
http://www.crivoice.org/creeddositheus.html


Quote:And, therefore, baptism is necessary even for infants, since they also are subject to original sin, and without Baptism are not able to obtain its remission. Which the Lord showed when he said, not of some only, but simply and absolutely, “Whoever is not born [again],” which is the same as saying, “All that after the coming of Christ the Savior would enter into the Kingdom of the Heavens must be regenerated.” And since infants are men, and as such need salvation, needing salvation they need also Baptism. And those that are not regenerated, since they have not received the remission of hereditary sin, are, of necessity, subject to eternal punishment, and consequently cannot without Baptism be saved. So that even infants should, of necessity, be baptized.

Here’s an old Catechism that was used for a long time in the EO world--it even uses the word "guilt" in reference to original sin, which is anathema to modern EOs (neither of us considered this "guilt" the same species as a personal "culpa" due to actual sin, and Catholics still don't despite modern EO straw-man polemics):
https://archive.org/details/cu31924029363094/page/n6

Quote:Question 20.
What is Original Sin ?

Answer.

Original Sin is the Transgression of that Law of God which was given to Adam, the Father of all Men, in these "Words {Gen. ii. 17), Of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil thou shall not eat ; for in the Day that thou eatest thereof thou shall surely die. This original Sin spreadeth over all human Nature ; forasmuch as we were all then contained in Adam. Wherefore by one Adam Sin hath passed into us all. And we are conceived and born with this Blemish, as the Scripture teacheth us {Rom. v. 12), By one Man Sin entered into the World, and Death by Sin ; and so Death passed upon all Men, for that all have sinned. This hereditary Sin cannot be rooted out or abolished by any Repentance what-ever, but only by the Grace of God, through the Work of Redemption, wrought by our Lord Jesus Christ, in taking upon him our Flesh and pouring out his precious Blood. And this is done in the Mystery of holy Baptism; and whosoever is not a Partaker thereof, such an one remains unabsolved from his Sin, and continueth in his Guilt, and is liable to the eternal Punishment of the divine Wrath : As it is said {John iii. 5), Verily, verily, I say unto you, that except a Man be horn of Water, and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

(The approval of this Catechism by the four traditional EO Patriarchates of Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, and Jerusalem, states: "this book is in perfect accordance with the dogmas of the Church of Christ and with the sacred Canons; that it contains nothing contrary to the Church: and we declare, assembled in Synod, that every pious and orthodox Christian, who is a member of the Apostolic Church of the East, ought to read this book, and not to reject it.).
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#10
In many Ukrainian Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, and Maronite Churches, the theology is almost identical to the Latin Rite. It is very easy to get the wrong idea about Eastern Catholicism from the view in cyberspace, where the people seldom reflect the actual make up of the churches. You will hear bizarre statements like "we don't worship body parts (i,e no Sacred Heart devotions) believe in the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, have statues, do not kneel, practice Adoration, etc. If you really want to learn about Eastern Catholicism, go to one of there parishes and chat with people who have practiced the rite all there lives.
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