Fatima - Origin and Accuracy?
#11
(06-14-2019, 09:08 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: It seems some devout Catholics are still very skeptical for reasons like the image of Jesus having a heavy arm to clobber the world and Mary holding it back, and the accuracy of some of the prophecies.  

I haven't heard that this image is in the Fatima corpus. The idea of the merciful Mother of God set up as a juxtaposition against the wrath of Christ is a strange one indeed.

Hence I tend to be agnostic regarding this genre of apparition.
"If your heart comes to feel a natural hatred for sin, it has defeated the causes of sin and freed itself from them. Keep hell’s torments in mind; but know that your Helper is at hand. Do nothing that will grieve Him, but say to Him with tears: ‘Be merciful and deliver me, O Lord, for without Thy help I cannot escape from the hands of my enemies.’ Be attentive to your heart, and He will guard you from all evil."

- St. Isaias the Solitary

"Constant action overcomes cold; being still overcomes heat. Purity
and stillness give the correct law to all under heaven."

- Tao Te Ching 45
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#12
(06-14-2019, 08:46 PM)Melkite Wrote: This quote makes me question Akita:

"The demon will rage especially against souls consecrated to God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of my sadness. If sins increase in number and gravity, there will no longer be pardon for them."

If this is true, then God's mercy is finite.  I don't understand how anyone can argue that that is a message consistent with the Gospel.

Or that God must exercise His Justice, such as in a chastisement. People get too caught up in the infinite mercy of God and forget that His justice is the other end of that. He does the same thing with grace, if someone keeps confessing the same sin over and over again without amending their life, then He's going to eventually act out of Justice and withdraw the grace to overcome it because clearly that individual has no intention of change.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

"modern Catholics have tended to put too much faith in the pope and too little in the Church." - Bishop Williamson.
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#13
(06-14-2019, 11:02 PM)Augustinian Wrote: Or that God must exercise His Justice, such as in a chastisement. People get too caught up in the infinite mercy of God and forget that His justice is the other end of that. He does the same thing with grace, if someone keeps confessing the same sin over and over again without amending their life, then He's going to eventually act out of Justice and withdraw the grace to overcome it because clearly that individual has no intention of change.

Why?  Is God bound to exercise Justice, or is it his free choice to do so or not to do so?

Is it a doctrinal teaching that God will remove grace if someone confesses the same sins over and over again?  If the person never changes, are they going to be worse off in hell for God having continued to give them the grace to change than they would be if God takes the grace away because they weren't changing?

Mercy and justice are not flipsides of the same coin.  Logically, they are antithetical to each other.

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2013/03/17...ce-of-god/

Quote:That God is just is a truism of Christian faith. The Old and New Testament texts that speak of divine justice are innumerable. Theologians have unanimously claimed that justice is a relative divine attribute (Western tradition) or a divine energy (Eastern tradition). All have agreed that the God of the Bible is just … all, that is, except one. All have agreed that justice should characterize the Christian life … all, that is, except one.
“Mercy is opposed to justice,” declares St Isaac of Nineveh.
Quote:Mercy and justice in one soul is like a man who worships God and the idols in one house. Mercy is opposed to justice. Justice is the equality of the even scale, for it gives to each as he deserves; and when it makes recompense, it does not incline to one side or show respect of persons. Mercy, on the other hand, is a sorrow and pity stirred up by goodness, and it compassionately inclines a man in the direction of all; it does not requite a man who is deserving of evil, and to him who is deserving of good it gives a double portion. If, therefore, it is evident that mercy belongs to the portion of righteousness, then justice belongs to the portion of wickedness. As grass and fire cannot co-exist in one place, so justice and mercy cannot abide in one soul. As a grain of sand cannot counterbalance a great quantity of gold, so in comparison God’s use of justice cannot counterbalance His mercy. (Ascetical Homilies I.51. p. 379)
A little later in the same homily, Isaac provocatively states, “Justice does not belong to the Christian way of life, and there is no mention of it in Christ’s teaching” (I.51, p. 382). The disciple of Christ seeks to emulate in his life the mercy of God, for it this mercy that God has so graciously showered upon us. Hence the holy mystic instructs his readers, “Do not hate the sinner; for we are all laden with guilt. … Why do you hate him? Hate his sins and pray for him, that you may imitate Christ Who was not wroth with sinners, but interceded for them. Do you not see how he wept over Jerusalem” (I.51, p. 387). What do we know of the justice of God, when all we know is his unmerited grace and forgiveness? The disciples of Jesus seek to become like their Lord and thus to become like God. As a counselor of souls, Isaac knows that when a person turns his heart toward justice, he inevitably becomes consumed with vengeance and the desire for requital. But this is not who God is.
St Isaac then makes his famous pronouncement: “Do not call God just, for His justice is not manifest in the things concerning you” (I.51, p. 387). Surely this must be one of the most revolutionary statements in all of patristic literature. Are you tempted to dismiss it as hyperbole? Know that you are not alone. Moral theologians and philosophers will immediately begin their disquisitions on the virtues and the significance of justice in the good life. Biblical scholars will immediately begin to compile all the texts in Scripture that speak of the justice of God, perhaps with reference to the atoning death of Christ and the Pauline doctrine of justification. Parish pastors and preachers will feel uncomfortable. But virtually everyone will agree that Isaac has crossed over into rhetorical excess. But it is precisely at this point of excess, Isaac would tell us, that the gospel begins:
Quote:How can you call God just when you come across the Scriptural passage on the wage given to the workers? “Friend, I do thee no wrong: I choose to give unto this last even as unto thee. Or is thine eye evil because I am good?” How can a man call God just when he comes across the passage on the prodigal son who wasted his wealth with riotous living, how for the compunction alone which he showed the father ran and fell upon his neck and gave him authority over his wealth? None other but His very Son said these things concerning Him, lest we doubt it, and thus bore witness concerning Him. Where, then, is God’s justice?—for while we are sinners Christ died for us! But if here He is merciful, we may believe that He will not change. (I.51, p. 387)
If you hear in these words echoes of Martin Luther, you would not be wrong; but St Isaac the Syrian is no sola fide Protestant. Luther would find the way that Isaac combines his understanding of the unconditionality of the divine love with a rigorous asceticism quite unacceptable—and he would be the poorer for that. Yet I think Luther would rejoice in this powerful proclamation of the gospel that triumphs over every legalism, every justice.
A special word to preachers: Do not be reluctant to proclaim the gospel of God’s love in its full radicality. Yes, I know all the conundrums it poses. I have wrestled with them the past 35 years. But be assured that it is precisely the scandal of grace that opens the hearts of our people to faith and repentance.
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#14
(06-15-2019, 02:05 PM)Melkite Wrote: Why?  Is God bound to exercise Justice, or is it his free choice to do so or not to do so?

Is it a doctrinal teaching that God will remove grace if someone confesses the same sins over and over again?  If the person never changes, are they going to be worse off in hell for God having continued to give them the grace to change than they would be if God takes the grace away because they weren't changing?

You see God do just this over and over again to Israel in the Old Testament. He withdraws His grace from them by delivering the Israelites up to their enemies when they turn away from God. His Justice dictates that they be punished for their transgressions. And it is no different for the individual soul.

Out of mercy, He would send His prophets to call for repentance. And when the Israelites refused, then they were justly punished. He sends His grace to the baptized soul to repent and amend their life. But if they do not, then He delivers them up to their sin.

I don't need to block quote the Church Fathers to show this. Just read Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc. And you will see exactly what I'm talking about.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

"modern Catholics have tended to put too much faith in the pope and too little in the Church." - Bishop Williamson.
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#15
None of that addresses why Jesus spoke of the Father and his mercy entirely differently.  This very conundrum is why the heresy came about that God in the Old Testament is a different God from that of the new.  The only way I know how to reconcile it is to see the OT as largely allegorical.
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#16
(06-15-2019, 04:43 PM)Melkite Wrote: None of that addresses why Jesus spoke of the Father and his mercy entirely differently.  This very conundrum is why the heresy came about that God in the Old Testament is a different God from that of the new.  The only way I know how to reconcile it is to see the OT as largely allegorical.
I don't see how Christ expresses His mercy any differently when it was He Who spoke in the OT anyway. When Our Lord spoke of Himself as the "true vine" it is right in line with what He spoke through the prophets. Either you conform yourself to God's will or you will be cut off and cast into the fire. He gives you sufficient grace and time to convert, but eventually both will reach their limit and you will fall into hell.

Unfortunately, today we see such a warped notion of God's mercy coming out of the Church that it makes it appear as though Christ was somehow softer in His judgment than in the OT. Which is simply not true.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

"modern Catholics have tended to put too much faith in the pope and too little in the Church." - Bishop Williamson.
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#17
(06-15-2019, 04:43 PM)Melkite Wrote: None of that addresses why Jesus spoke of the Father and his mercy entirely differently.  This very conundrum is why the heresy came about that God in the Old Testament is a different God from that of the new.  The only way I know how to reconcile it is to see the OT as largely allegorical.

The OT is full of mercy.  You seem to have some secular hangups about it. Have you read it? What are you struggling with?  

The modern era has seen far worse chastisements than anything, barring the flood, in the OT.
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#18
Here's a good example of how God's mercy operates in the OT: "If so be, when the house of Juda shall hear all evils that I purpose to do unto them, that they may turn every man from his wicked way: and I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin." Jeremiah 36:3

God would give sufficient warning to Israel to repent, or they would be punished.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

"modern Catholics have tended to put too much faith in the pope and too little in the Church." - Bishop Williamson.
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#19
Any serious, full reading of the Old and New Testaments will show that it is one and the same God speaking to man. If you think God in the NT lacks justice just read Matthew 24 and the Apocalypse. Compare that to the prophet Zechariah and you'll clearly see that there is no contradiction between the two. Both Testaments are replete with examples of mercy and justice, I think you can only miss this if you cherry pick quotes.
"If your heart comes to feel a natural hatred for sin, it has defeated the causes of sin and freed itself from them. Keep hell’s torments in mind; but know that your Helper is at hand. Do nothing that will grieve Him, but say to Him with tears: ‘Be merciful and deliver me, O Lord, for without Thy help I cannot escape from the hands of my enemies.’ Be attentive to your heart, and He will guard you from all evil."

- St. Isaias the Solitary

"Constant action overcomes cold; being still overcomes heat. Purity
and stillness give the correct law to all under heaven."

- Tao Te Ching 45
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#20
Mercy is contingent on repentance.  That's a good point.  I lose sight of that a lot.
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