Ubi Petrus, ibi... schismatici?
#1
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/...arch-86122


Cry
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#2
Not sure who I might offend but: isn't this a good thing? This division between east and west, it's pretty small ideologically, and shouldn't the way be found to have a rapprochement? The Orthodox have valid everything, orders and sacraments. A divided house cannot stand! And just think, if we were on speaking terms, we might be permanently spared the "two lungs" metaphor. That one is so hackneyed it brings on my cough! Sometimes the way forward begins with a gift, good feelings, a recognition of what is shared...
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#3
(07-03-2019, 09:05 PM)TruthWhichIsChrist Wrote: Not sure who I might offend but: isn't this a good thing? This division between east and west, it's pretty small ideologically, and shouldn't the way be found to have a rapprochement? The Orthodox have valid everything, orders and sacraments. A divided house cannot stand! And just think, if we were on speaking terms, we might be permanently spared the "two lungs" metaphor. That one is so hackneyed it brings on my cough! Sometimes the way forward begins with a gift, good feelings, a recognition of what is shared...

But Peter is precisely what is not shared.

I'm all for good relations with the East. Really, I am. I wouldn't even object to important, meaningful gifts.

It's the symbolism of this gift that is horrific.
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Vos omnes amatores pulcherrimae linguae ecclesiae nostrae, videte filum quo de rebus sanctis profanisque colloqui possumus.
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#4
I'm inclined to agree with Filiolus on this one. Handing over the relics of the first pope to schismatics who reject papal supremacy does not sit well with me.

I would love nothing more than the mending of the trivial divisions between West and East, but this is not a way to do it.
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#5
(07-03-2019, 09:05 PM)TruthWhichIsChrist Wrote: The Orthodox have valid everything, orders and sacraments. A divided house cannot stand!

The Church can never be divided. Heretics and schismatics are outside the Church, not some separate part of the Church. As we say every Sunday, credo in unam, sanctam, catholicam, apostolicam ecclesiam.

Or as St Augustine wrote, "He can have rank, he can have the sacraments; he can sing Alleluia, and answer Amen; he can hold and preach the faith in the name of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; but salvation nowhere shall he be able to find save in the Catholic Church."
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#6
(07-03-2019, 09:05 PM)TruthWhichIsChrist Wrote: A divided house cannot stand!

Christ's house is not divided.

Our separated brethren in the east have left the house.
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#7
Yep, they also believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.

The Orthodox have something in common with Traditionalists: they object to certain trends, and hold themselves back from them; by and by, the train will leave the station.

They, also, are nervous about reconciliation. They use phrases like "dead legalism" and "extreme authoritarianism" to describe Rome, and are sure that the Catholic faith is "infected by the extreme individualism of the Protestant Reformation". Example quotes from The Rush to Embrace by Archpriest Alexey Young, 1996. They also warn about "serious and arbitrary innovations" -- in the 1890s.
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#8
(07-03-2019, 09:05 PM)TruthWhichIsChrist Wrote: Not sure who I might offend but: isn't this a good thing? This division between east and west, it's pretty small ideologically, and shouldn't the way be found to have a rapprochement? The Orthodox have valid everything, orders and sacraments. A divided house cannot stand! And just think, if we were on speaking terms, we might be permanently spared the "two lungs" metaphor. That one is so hackneyed it brings on my cough! Sometimes the way forward begins with a gift, good feelings, a recognition of what is shared...

Yes, the Orthodox have valid orders and valid sacraments; however, they are still outside the Church, out of communion with the Roman Pontiff, and do not possess any jurisdiction (other than that which is supplied). The "two lungs" metaphor can only be used to refer to the Latin (Western) Church and the Eastern Catholic Churches sui iuris; the second lung cannot be a group of loosely organised schismatic Churches. There isn't division within the Church, rendering your reference to the "divided house" rather inapt, I'm afraid. And since the Church by definition must possess unity--as oneness is one of her four marks--those in any state of division must be outside the Church.
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#9
(07-04-2019, 12:23 AM)TruthWhichIsChrist Wrote: Yep, they also believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.

They claim to. In reality they are a group of churches fighting amongst themselves on national and ethnic lines. They are a rudderless navy with no overall command. They are outside the Church of Christ and I am horrified and scandalised at Francis's giving away the Patrimony of the Roman Church to schismatics. And to Constantinople? Not even one of the ancient Sees! If he wanted to give away St Peter's relics, at least give them to Antioch where St Peter was Bishop before he went to Rome!
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#10
I lean toward TruthWhichIsChrist on this. My first thought is that it is like giving a lapsed Catholic a Green Scapular to put under their bed.
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