Bishops or Popes not in Heaven - what are they?
#1
This is a thought sparked from another thread.

Many agree not all bishops go to heaven, and very possibly some popes are not there either.

So what is a person that holds office of bishop or pope,  but does not go to heaven?  


Are they a Christian here on earth? 

Are they part of the Church here on earth, but then not after death?

What are they?
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#2
Sinners just like the rest of us . Ordination is not a guarantee that you will die in a state of grace.
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#3
They are either among those in Purgatory or among the damned.

Strange this thread would come up though. Lately I've been having dreams about Pope St. John Paul II, and they aren't entirely heavenly.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

'Vanity of vanities, said Ecclesiastes: vanity of vanities, and all is vanity.' - Ecclesiastes 1:2

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#4
(07-08-2019, 09:11 PM)Augustinian Wrote: Strange this thread would come up though. Lately I've been having dreams about Pope St. John Paul II, and they aren't entirely heavenly.

Well St Faustina prophesied the coming of St Pope John Paul II and I've read other Church approved private revelation that he is in heaven, can't recall where exactly though to quote it. I don't doubt it either and I think it's unfair to be so critical toward St Pope John Paul II who was instrumental in the fight against atheist communism, I shudder to think where we would be without him.

God Bless
Jesus to St Faustina:

"For you I descended from heaven to earth; for you I allowed myself to be nailed to the cross; for you I let my Sacred Heart be pierced with a lance, thus opening wide the source of mercy for you. Come, then, with trust to draw graces from this fountain. I never reject a contrite heart." (Diary, 1485)

"Remember My Passion, and if you do not believe My words, at least believe My wounds." (Diary, 379)

"It is in My Passion that you must seek light and strength." (Diary, 654)
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#5
(07-08-2019, 09:03 PM)Markie Boy Wrote: This is a thought sparked from another thread. Many agree not all bishops go to heaven, and very possibly some popes are not there either. So what is a person that holds office of bishop or pope, but does not go to heaven?  


Are they a Christian here on earth? Are they part of the Church here on earth, but then not after death? What are they?

The parable of the wheat and the cockle.

Did we not cast out demons in thy name? Depart from me, I never knew you.

I will leave it to more qualified forum members to correct me wherever I make an error, but below is my understanding of how this works.

Certain sacraments impart a special character on the soul. They leave a mark on a soul that makes it different from others. Baptism does this. A baptized soul has received a mark of baptism on the soul. This mark is indelible. A person cannot revoke their baptism. He is always baptized. In death, a soul maintains this character. If a man is saved, he preserves the mark of a baptized man in Heaven. In Hell, he keeps the mark of baptism. It is not removed from him. 

The same is done with certain other sacraments. Confirmation and Holy Orders (the diaconate, the priesthood, the episcopacy) also impart an indelible mark on the soul. A confirmed soul is confirmed forever. A priest is a priest forever. Sacerdos in aeternum. 

This is why a man can only be baptize once, can only be confirmed once, and can only be ordained once. Holy Matrimony doesn't impart this character on the soul. Therefore, you can marry many times, presupposing of course that your former spouse is dead. Death dissolves the union.

To be member of the Catholic Church, it is necessary to hold the Catholic faith and maintain union with the visible Church. Heresy kills faith. Martin Luther and John Calvin were faithless heretics. That sounds harsh, but that is just a statement of fact. They had no faith because they committed heresy. Luther is actually a good example here, since he was baptized, confirm, and ordained to the holy priesthood. Yet, he died a heretic outside of communion with the Church. Where is he? Where ever he is, he is baptized priest.  

Heresy can be material or formal. Most people in the Church are probably material heretics. They, through no fault of their own hold an erroneous position about the Catholic faith. In your experience, this would probably constitute the majority of people within the Catholic Pentecostalism movement. You and I probably hold opinions which would be materially heretical. In material heresy there is no sin. Sin is in the will and the material heretic has not willed to disagree with the Church. He holds an opinion contrary to Church teaching. Formal heresy is being obstinate in one's heretical opinion. 

If I hold a heretical opinion and am corrected and shown that the Church authoritatively condemns my opinion or teaches the contrary, and if I persist obstinately in that opinion in spite of the Church, then I am a formal heretic. Cf. Saint Matthew 18:15-17:


Quote:"But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican."

So, it is possible that a man could hold the office of bishop but be one of the ravening wolves Christ speaks about. One could be a priest without faith. Our Lord says that there will even be some who will drive out devils even though He never knew them. They didn't love Him, may not have had faith and yet could still function has priests. 

I don't believe that one's membership in the Church is continued after death if one is damned. The Church is three. The Church militant (us today), the Church Suffering (souls in Purgatory) and the Church Triumphant (the Souls experiencing the Beatific Vision.) I've never heard of a church condemned. Nevertheless, you would still keep the character imparted by the sacraments you'd received.
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#6
We are all sinners.

My question is about those like pope Alexander VI - when you look at them, if they were not pope most of us would not credit the title Christian to them.

What about when someone that appears in all ways to be a non-Christian holds office? Are they still in the Church?

If any one of us behaved like Alexander VI, would we be considered in the Church?
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#7
(07-08-2019, 09:35 PM)josh987654321 Wrote:
(07-08-2019, 09:11 PM)Augustinian Wrote: Strange this thread would come up though. Lately I've been having dreams about Pope St. John Paul II, and they aren't entirely heavenly.

Well St Faustina prophesied the coming of St Pope John Paul II and I've read other Church approved private revelation that he is in heaven, can't recall where exactly though to quote it. I don't doubt it either and I think it's unfair to be so critical toward St Pope John Paul II who was instrumental in the fight against atheist communism, I shudder to think where we would be without him.

God Bless

Where did she prophesy this? I've not heard this before. Sounds too convenient for a woman who was canonized by a pope would prophesy that same pope's existence. 

And John Paul II, for all the good that he may have done still held the Assisi meetings. He still promoted ecumenism. Under him many of the vile characters that we are dealing with today in the hierarchy assumed their places. He elevated several of them. 

I think John Paul deserves a little bit of criticism he receives, to say the least.
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#8
(07-08-2019, 09:40 PM)Markie Boy Wrote: We are all sinners.

My question is about those like pope Alexander VI - when you look at them, if they were not pope most of us would not credit the title Christian to them.

What about when someone that appears in all ways to be a non-Christian holds office?  Are they still in the Church?

If any one of us behaved like Alexander VI, would we be considered in the Church?

He is a Christian. He is a bad Christian. I am a bad Christian. I don't lose membership with the Church through debauchery. Alexander VI, for all his scandal, maintained Christian orthodoxy. He was disgusting. But, he was the Pope.

How does this someone appear to be a non-Christian? What is he doing? You can commit apostasy which is a total repudiation of any form of Christianity. Becoming a Muslim, Hindu or Mormon would amount to this. In essence, you reject God totally and commit yourself to a lie. 

I don't think that the majority of the clergy nowadays are doing this.
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#9
(07-08-2019, 09:43 PM)Alphonse il Segundo Wrote:
(07-08-2019, 09:35 PM)josh987654321 Wrote:
(07-08-2019, 09:11 PM)Augustinian Wrote: Strange this thread would come up though. Lately I've been having dreams about Pope St. John Paul II, and they aren't entirely heavenly.

Well St Faustina prophesied the coming of St Pope John Paul II and I've read other Church approved private revelation that he is in heaven, can't recall where exactly though to quote it. I don't doubt it either and I think it's unfair to be so critical toward St Pope John Paul II who was instrumental in the fight against atheist communism, I shudder to think where we would be without him.

God Bless

Where did she prophesy this? I've not heard this before. Sounds too convenient for a woman who was canonized by a pope would prophesy that same pope's existence. 

And John Paul II, for all the good that he may have done still held the Assisi meetings. He still promoted ecumenism. Under him many of the vile characters that we are dealing with today in the hierarchy assumed their places. He elevated several of them. 

I think John Paul deserves a little bit of criticism he receives, to say the least.

Yeah, I'm in agreement. I won't deny that he is in heaven, I'm very happy that he is. I can't help but like John Paul II, but not as a pope. I just think it was very rash to move ahead with canonization so quickly in light of his less-than-stellar papacy. Being a canonized saint is like being an all-star for the Church, with their lives being a model of Catholic holiness. I cannot say his papacy serves as the best model for the Church.

Not to derail the thread, but I am very suspicious of how the Divine Mercy devotion was propagated myself. But that's a completely different discussion altogether. Forgive me.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

'Vanity of vanities, said Ecclesiastes: vanity of vanities, and all is vanity.' - Ecclesiastes 1:2

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#10
Quote:Not to derail the thread, but I am very suspicious of how the Divine Mercy devotion was propagated myself. But that's a completely different discussion altogether. Forgive me.

There is plenty of stuff about DM and St. Faustina on the forum that you can look through. It has been hashed out here plenty of times. I don't practice the devotion, I really have no desire to. I don't judge anyone who does.

I remain neutral. 



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