The Second Vatican Council
#1
Hello everyone!  Happy Feast Day of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel!

I would love to have a nice peaceful dialog with you guys n gals regarding where you feel the Second Vatican Council has been wrong.  I'd like to address your issues from my angle.  But it is a massive undertaking.  Necessary for all I think.  So, since some of you here are very learned regarding many of the perceived faults and failings of the Council, I'm asking you to bring them here to this thread and present them so perhaps in a civilized way, we can discuss them.  It will probably get a bit snarky at times, but that's because we are all very passionate pilgrims and you guys n gals are no exception.  Please, please, please include exact citations to the particular passages you have your issues with and a brief reason why.  I'll really appreciate this as I'm sure we'll all benefit from the experienced understandings you all have.  

So, I hope and pray on this feast day of my Mother and my Queen, you all show some charity to a silly widow and kindly try to explain to her where she has been fooled by V2, if you can.  

God bless.  Ginnyfree.
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#2
As one of the few hereabouts, that actually lived through the change and was in a Catholic High School when the changes went into effect (moving the Altar around, changing the liturgy, Nuns out of Habit, etc.), I find myself a staunchly anti-Vatican II, Roman Catholc. Some may call me a "sedevacantist", but I am not on board completely with the papal seat being vacant since Pius XII, although I can certainly see these folk's point.

If labels must be used and that seems rather common around here with a number of members, then I suppose the label of "Traditionalist" may be best suited to me.

This may become a very interesting thread!!

Bravo!!
One should have an open mind; open enough that things get in, but not so open that everything falls out
Art Bell
 
The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous that he cannot believe it exists.
J Edgar Hoover

 
I don't need a good memory, because I always tell the truth.
Jessie Ventura

 
Its no wonder truth is stranger than fiction.
Fiction has to make sense
Mark Twain

If history doesn't repeat itself, it sure does rhyme.
Mark Twain
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#3
Something is/was wrong with VCII? Huh?

News to me.

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#4
It's nice to finally see a non-controversial topic we can all agree on.
Filioli mei, non diligamus verbo neque lingua, sed opere et veritate.

Vos omnes amatores pulcherrimae linguae ecclesiae nostrae, videte filum quo de rebus sanctis profanisque colloqui possumus.
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#5
Don’t waste your time would be my advice.
Focus your energy on holiness.
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#6
(07-16-2019, 11:50 AM)Bonaventure Wrote: Something is/was wrong with VCII? Huh?

News to me.


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Love the pics!  Proof that clerics are not immune to insanity.  I'd hand out some Haldol with their punch after Mass.

The last one needs defense though.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with showing reverence for the revered objects of others.  Part of the art of diplomacy, like it or not.  To use it to disparage a canonized Saint is now a blasphemy for treating that which is sacred with disrespect is a sin, especially among those who know better.  Suppose he'd chosen to profane their sacred book right in front of them to "prove" how "catholic" he was?  You may not like it, but he did what was the right thing to do in that instance.  

I'm very grateful I've never been forced to witness a "clown Mass."  I don't know that I'd be able to hold my tongue.  It does, however, remind me of the clown suit I donned to go do some volunteer services at the Woods School when I was VP of my Honor Society in college.  We'd go once a month and give the residents a nice little party for a couple of hours.  It was fun.  God bless.  Ginnyfree.
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#7
Quote:Part of the art of diplomacy, like it or not.  

Below is a story about St. Elias, Patron of Saint of Diplomats and Interreligious Dialogue, from the Third Book of Kings, with slight editing for those of a more diplomatic nature:

Quote:And Elias coming to all the people, said: How long do you halt between two sides? If the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people did not answer him a word... Call ye on the names of your gods, and I will call on the name of my Lord: and the God that shall answer by fire, let him be God. And all the people answering, said: A very good proposal. Then Elias said to the prophets of Baal: Choose you one bullock and dress it first, because you are many: and call on the names of your gods, but put no fire under. And they took the bullock which he gave them, and dressed it: and they called on the name of Baal from morning even till noon, saying: O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered: and they leaped over the altar that they had made. 

And when it was now noon, Elias jested at accompanied them, saying consoling them with such positive motivations as these: Cry with a louder voice: for he is a God, and perhaps he is talking, or is in an inn, or on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep, and must be awaked. So they cried with a loud voice, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till they were all covered with blood. And after midday was past, and while they were prophesying, the time was come of offering sacrifice, and there was no voice heard, nor did any one answer, nor regard them as they prayed:  Elias said to all the people: Come ye unto me. And the people coming near unto him, he repaired the altar of the Lord, that was broken down: And he took twelve stones according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of the Lord came, saying: Israel shall be thy name. And he built with the stones an altar to the name of the Lord: and he made a trench for water, of the breadth of two furrows round about the altar. And he laid the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid it upon the wood...

And when it was now time to offer the holocaust, Elias the prophet came near and said: O Lord God of Abraham, and Isaac, and Israel, shew this day that thou art the God of Israel, and I thy servant, and that according to thy commandment good suggestion I have done all these things. Hear me, O Lord, hear me: that this people may learn, that thou art the Lord God, and that thou hast turned their heart again. Then the fire of the Lord fell, and consumed the holocaust, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. And when all the people saw this, they fell on their faces, and they said: The Lord he is God, the Lord he is God. The Lord he is the privileged way, the Lord he is the privileged way! And Elias said to them: Take the prophets of Baal, and let not one of them escape. And when they had taken them, Elias brought them down to the torrent Cison, and killed them there.  Quick, bring the prophets of Baal to me and let not one of the them escape, that I may reverence that which they revere. And when they had take them, Elias brought them to the torrent of Kisson the Koran, and showed them diplomatic reverence there, kissing and reverencing the idols of Baal. 

And now, on a more serious note:

Quote:To use it to disparage a canonized Saint is now a blasphemy for treating that which is sacred with disrespect is a sin


Mark 14:66-72, not edited for sensitivity

Quote:Now when Peter was in the court below, there cometh one of the maidservants of the high priest. And when she had seen Peter warming himself, looking on him she saith: Thou also wast with Jesus of Nazareth. But he denied, saying: I neither know nor understand what thou sayest. And he went forth before the court; and the cock crew. And again a maidservant seeing him, began to say to the standers by: This is one of them. But he denied again. And after a while they that stood by said again to Peter: Surely thou art one of them; for thou art also a Galilean. But he began to curse and to swear, saying; I know not this man of whom you speak. And immediately the cock crew again. And Peter remembered the word that Jesus had said unto him: Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt thrice deny me. And he began to weep.

Somebody should really get around to deleting this out of the Bible. Otherwise, people might know the bad things that St. Peter did.
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#8
(07-16-2019, 03:02 PM)Alphonse il Segundo Wrote:
Quote:Now when Peter was in the court below, there cometh one of the maidservants of the high priest. And when she had seen Peter warming himself, looking on him she saith: Thou also wast with Jesus of Nazareth. But he denied, saying: I neither know nor understand what thou sayest. And he went forth before the court; and the cock crew. And again a maidservant seeing him, began to say to the standers by: This is one of them. But he denied again. And after a while they that stood by said again to Peter: Surely thou art one of them; for thou art also a Galilean. But he began to curse and to swear, saying; I know not this man of whom you speak. And immediately the cock crew again. And Peter remembered the word that Jesus had said unto him: Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt thrice deny me. And he began to weep.

Somebody should really get around to deleting this out of the Bible. Otherwise, people might know the bad things that St. Peter did.

Shoot, the above is just one of many for that sorta 'roughian' Peter. Jesus even equated him to Satan once, saying he should 'get thee behind me...'.

It was a while before the Holy Spirit entered him. That's when he began to 'straighten up and fly right'.
One should have an open mind; open enough that things get in, but not so open that everything falls out
Art Bell
 
The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous that he cannot believe it exists.
J Edgar Hoover

 
I don't need a good memory, because I always tell the truth.
Jessie Ventura

 
Its no wonder truth is stranger than fiction.
Fiction has to make sense
Mark Twain

If history doesn't repeat itself, it sure does rhyme.
Mark Twain
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#9
(07-16-2019, 03:02 PM)Alphonse il Segundo Wrote:
Quote:Part of the art of diplomacy, like it or not.  

Below is a story about St. Elias, Patron of Saint of Diplomats and Interreligious Dialogue,

Somebody should really get around to deleting this out of the Bible. Otherwise, people might know the bad things that St. Peter did.


Your post is a little flat.  First, there is no patron saint for diplomats though few come close, peacemakers, foreign missions, etc.  Secondly, the Pope is judged by no one but God, so perhaps you shouldn't.  Prudence.  It doesn't help except to make it harder for you to find some sort of reconciliation with your issues.  

I really don't want the usual diatribe that means nothing in this thread, but rather genuine issues.  Pick your most difficult passage from any of the Documents of V2, and tell me why it is not okay.  Then we can talk.  

God bless.  Ginnyfree.
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#10
They downgraded St. Patricks Day.  It used to be a nice, fun, but Holy Day.  Now it is nothing more than a beer drinking contest.
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