Is the Catholic Charismatic Movement a Heresy?
#1
I have a hard time not seeing this movement as an actual heresy.

Any thoughts?
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#2
(08-05-2019, 08:40 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: I have a hard time not seeing this movement as an actual heresy.

Any thoughts?

It came from protestantism and not in the way a convert does. It's ecumenical to its core in the same way the US congress is bipartisan. As long as one side gets its way all the time and the other side stays silent or makes approving noises and smiles then they're being bipartisan, er, ecumenical.

It is a religious movement that is not Catholic in its inception, I think that says everything that needs to be said.
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#3
Not sure if I would say it's heretical, as in I'm pretty sure you don't have to deny an article of faith to do charismatic stuff. But they are certainly (and dangerously) acting outside of the Catholic praxis.
"If your heart comes to feel a natural hatred for sin, it has defeated the causes of sin and freed itself from them. Keep hell’s torments in mind; but know that your Helper is at hand. Do nothing that will grieve Him, but say to Him with tears: ‘Be merciful and deliver me, O Lord, for without Thy help I cannot escape from the hands of my enemies.’ Be attentive to your heart, and He will guard you from all evil."

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#4
The attitude of even the best of the charismatic movement seems to be that the teachings of the Church are “nice,” but the “real” spirituality is found in the charismatic experiences. A movement based on feelings, or of mystical experiences that the follower presumes that God will give them seems very dangerous to me. Actually, it seems little different to me than doing psychedelic drugs, except the drug experiences are stronger and at least with drugs the user doesn’t generally pretend that the experience is from God.
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#5
(08-05-2019, 09:41 AM)Florus Wrote: Not sure if I would say it's heretical, as in I'm pretty sure you don't have to deny an article of faith to do charismatic stuff. But they are certainly (and dangerously) acting outside of the Catholic praxis.

One certainly has to forget 1 Corinthians 12-13 to be a Charismatic, so I'd say it always approaches heresy, by denying the clear words of St Paul.

1 Cor 12-13 (Pardon the Length, but it's important to put the lot together to get what St Paul is really saying, pay attention to the embolden parts): 

Quote:12:1 And now about spiritual gifts; I would not willingly leave you in doubt about these.
2 While you were still heathen, as you can remember well enough, you let yourselves be led away wherever men would lead you, to worship false gods that gave no utterance.
3 That is why I am telling you of this. Just as no one can be speaking through God’s Spirit if he calls Jesus accursed, so it is only through the Holy Spirit that anyone can say, Jesus is the Lord;
4 and yet there are different kinds of gifts, though it is the same Spirit who gives them,
5 just as there are different kinds of service, though it is the same Lord we serve,
6 and different manifestations of power, though it is the same God who manifests his power everywhere in all of us.
7 The revelation of the Spirit is imparted to each, to make the best advantage of it.
8 One learns to speak with wisdom, by the power of the Spirit, another to speak with knowledge, with the same Spirit for his rule;
9 one, through the same Spirit, is given faith; another, through the same Spirit, powers of healing;
10 one can perform miracles, one can prophesy, another can test the spirit of the prophets; one can speak in different tongues, another can interpret the tongues;
11 but all this is the work of one and the same Spirit, who distributes his gifts as he will to each severally.
12 A man’s body is all one, though it has a number of different organs; and all this multitude of organs goes to make up one body; so it is with Christ.
13 We too, all of us, have been baptized into a single body by the power of a single Spirit, Jews and Greeks, slaves and free men alike; we have all been given drink at a single source, the one Spirit.
14 The body, after all, consists not of one organ but of many;
15 if the foot should say, I am not the hand, and therefore I do not belong to the body, does it belong to the body any the less for that?
16 If the ear should say, I am not the eye, and therefore I do not belong to the body, does it belong to the body any the less for that?
17 Where would the power of hearing be, if the body were all eye? Or the power of smell, if the body were all ear?
18 As it is, God has given each one of them its own position in the body, as he would.
19 If the whole were one single organ, what would become of the body?
20 Instead of that, we have a multitude of organs, and one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of thee, or the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 On the contrary, it is those parts of our body which seem most contemptible that are necessary to it;
23 what seems base in our bodies, we surround with special honour, treating with special seemliness that which is unseemly in us,
24 whereas that which is seemly in us has no need of it. Thus God has established a harmony in the body, giving special honour to that which needed it most.
25 There was to be no want of unity in the body; all the different parts of it were to make each other’s welfare their common care.
26 If one part is suffering, all the rest suffer with it; if one part is treated with honour, all the rest find pleasure in it.
27 And you are Christ’s body, organs of it depending upon each other.
28 God has given us different positions in the church; apostles first, then prophets, and thirdly teachers; then come miraculous powers, then gifts of healing, works of mercy, the management of affairs, speaking with different tongues, and interpreting prophecy.
29 Are all of us apostles, all prophets, all teachers?
30 Have all miraculous powers, or gifts of healing? Can all speak with tongues, can all interpret?
31 Prize the best gifts of heaven. Meanwhile, I can shew you a way which is better than any other.
1 I may speak with every tongue that men and angels use; yet, if I lack charity, I am no better than echoing bronze, or the clash of cymbals.
2 I may have powers of prophecy, no secret hidden from me, no knowledge too deep for me; I may have utter faith, so that I can move mountains; yet if I lack charity, I count for nothing.
3 I may give away all that I have, to feed the poor; I may give myself up to be burnt at the stake; if I lack charity, it goes for nothing.✻
4 Charity is patient, is kind; charity feels no envy; charity is never perverse or proud,
5 never insolent; does not claim its rights, cannot be provoked, does not brood over an injury;
6 takes no pleasure in wrong-doing, but rejoices at the victory of truth;
7 sustains, believes, hopes, endures, to the last.
8 The time will come when we shall outgrow prophecy, when speaking with tongues will come to an end, when knowledge will be swept away; we shall never have finished with charity.
9 Our knowledge, our prophecy, are only glimpses of the truth;
10 and these glimpses will be swept away when the time of fulfilment comes.
11 (Just so, when I was a child, I talked like a child, I had the intelligence, the thoughts of a child; since I became a man, I have outgrown childish ways.)
12 At present, we are looking at a confused reflection in a mirror; then, we shall see face to face; now, I have only glimpses of knowledge; then, I shall recognize God as he has recognized me.
13 Meanwhile, faith, hope and charity persist, all three; but the greatest of them all is charity.
And it's also important to realize that these gifts, even if they are real, do no good for the person himself, but are only for others. Yet how many think themselves holy because they get the motivation to shout out some unintelligible phrase.  
John 11: 49-53 : 
Quote:49 And one of them, Caiphas, who held the high priesthood in that year, said to them, "You have no perception at all;
50 you do not reflect that it is best for us if one man is put to death for the sake of the people, to save a whole nation from destruction."
51 It was not of his own impulse that he said this; holding the high priesthood as he did in that year, he was able to prophesy that Jesus was to die for the sake of the nation;
52 and not only for that nation’s sake, but so as to bring together into one all God’s children, scattered far and wide.
53 From that day forward, then, they plotted his death;

Yep. Even those who were plotting the murder of Christ could prophecy and could exercise these spiritual gifts that the Charismatics prize. Did them a lot of good!
Those wanting a "revival" of these gifts clearly has not read St Paul. Those "gifts" were for a time to demonstrate the Church when it had no history to fall back upon and needed to make an immediate impression. It was also when the Apostles themselves could regulate these things. As soon as the Church was well established (a couple hundred years) the exercise of these gifts declined to subtle movements, and not what the Charismatics propose.

I'll stick with St Paul.
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#6
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#7
I don't know about heresy, I mean, it falls under the umbrella of modernism so it could be called one.

I'd just rather call it an open door to the demonic. What they're referring to as the "holy spirit" is not the Holy Spirit at all. A desire for supernatural gifts and mystical experiences can be granted by beings other than God. That's why St John of the Cross warns strongly against this desire and even goes as far as to tell people to reject all of these sorts of "experiences" just to be safe.
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#8
At best it seems to be really bad teaching that is promoted by the Church, and endorsed by multiple popes.

Anyone noticed the East - either Eastern Catholic or Orthodox, just don't seem to let this garbage in the door. Why is that?
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#9
(08-05-2019, 11:49 PM)Markie Boy Wrote: At best it seems to be really bad teaching that is promoted by the Church, and endorsed by multiple popes.

Well... when we see who is at the very top today (through a rigged election IMO) then it's no wonder, the enemy has free reign today for the proving of the elect, the Church is going through her passion and death, after which will come her resurrection.

(08-05-2019, 11:49 PM)Markie Boy Wrote: Anyone noticed the East - either Eastern Catholic or Orthodox, just don't seem to let this garbage in the door. Why is that?

They suffered under communism.

"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."

God Bless
Jesus to St Faustina:

"For you I descended from heaven to earth; for you I allowed myself to be nailed to the cross; for you I let my Sacred Heart be pierced with a lance, thus opening wide the source of mercy for you. Come, then, with trust to draw graces from this fountain. I never reject a contrite heart." (Diary, 1485)

"Remember My Passion, and if you do not believe My words, at least believe My wounds." (Diary, 379)

"It is in My Passion that you must seek light and strength." (Diary, 654)
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#10
[quote pid='1402146' dateline='1565063386']

Anyone noticed the East - either Eastern Catholic or Orthodox, just don't seem to let this garbage in the door.  Why is that?
[/quote]

When I was Orthodox , back when the 'charismatic' movement was becoming a big thing, someone asked my pastor why the EOs didn't have a similar movement. He replied that the Holy Ghost had never left the Orthodox. That of course, is implicit in the Catholic movement, that He deserted the Church for almost 2,000 years.
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