Really Confused about Vatican II
#11
(08-19-2019, 07:28 AM)Blind Horus Wrote: So yeah Zedta, it'a a good possibility that seat is vacant.

Not if one accepts what Catholic theologians, Popes and Councils say about the Nature of the Church: that it is a society.

If it is not a society, but merely a moral union of individuals, then the result is that Protestantism is true.

If it is a society, as the Church teaches, it is simply impossible that a society be without a head for a long time, because the authority is the cause of the union in a society, and the principle of movement. If a society is without a head, it is like a body which is without its head, or perhaps more like a chicken. It can seem to operate for a while, but eventually it will die. In the Church, the head can be replaced by a new election. Doesn't work for a chicken.

It might be one thing in 1970 to assert that there was no Pope, but to think that for nearly 50 years (nearly 2 generations) there has not only not been a head is impossible. That there is a false head is even worse, and it would mean that the Church has defected. Previous to these modern theories, the longest period without a Pope was two-and-a-half years. Now it's 50 or more?

It all sounds like a very neat and simple solution, indeed, but so does Protestantism and any heresy. Both ignore Church history and want too perfect a Church.

Those who are wrong are usually right about what is wrong, but wrong about what is right. I sympathize with those who see the crisis in the Church, but it simply isn't solved by this overly-simplistic solution.
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#12
Listen, do yourself a favour and don’t go down this path.
Just focus on yourself and your own holiness.
Read good solid Catechisms (e.g. The Catechism by Father Spirago is excellent).
Read the Church Fathers.
Read the writings of the Saints.
And, of course, read Sacred Scripture.
We have to surrender this situation to Providence.
It could very well be that God has permitted this to happen to show us that no matter how bad things get, the Church will never be defeated by Satan.
I’m telling you, for the sake of your sanity — and, most of all, your soul — to avoid the sedevacantist stuff completely. I’m convinced it’s a diabolical distraction to keep your eyes fixed on the beam in other people’s eyes.
This topic is very complex, and will distract you from gaining merit.
Focus on making willful acts of faith, hope, and charity. Focus on humility.
Be aware of God’s presence in every single moment.
God bless you.
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#13
(08-19-2019, 03:57 PM)MaryTN Wrote: I can't think of anything good that came out of VII, except that my non-Catholic grandmother would not automatically go to hell for being Protestant.

Vatican II didn't change that. Vatican II can't change that, since no council can change doctrine. What changed is the presentation of it. Before, one presumed that someone who is a member of a heretical sect is a heretic, in the hope that he will renounce his heresy and come back to the Church. After, one placed more emphasis on the subjective aspect of it, pointing out that everyone who is baptised is baptised Catholic, and only becomes guilty of the mortal sin of heresy when he realises what he's doing and the conditions for mortal sin are met. For Protestants, especially ones who grow up being taught that Catholic Church is idolatrous and wrong and evil, and they reject the Church because they want to follow God's will, they might not be guilty of heresy. But all that was just as true before Vatican II. Now, though, it's heard as "Protestants go to heaven", and they're confirmed in their errors. I think it's more compassionate to tell them they're wrong, rather than leave it up to "might".

Vatican II didn't invent the idea. Pius IX wrote, "We all know that those who suffer from invincible ignorance with regard to our holy religion, if they carefully keep the precepts of the natural law which have been written by God in the hearts of all men, if they are prepared to obey God, and if they lead a virtuous and dutiful life, can, by the power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life."

How many Protestants are invincibly ignorant these days, when they're well aware of the Catholic Church and it's very easy to find out what she teaches, well, only God knows. But maybe they're helped by a clergy who don't teach the Catholic faith anymore and tell them they're just fine in Protestantism, and even saints say they just want to help Muslims be better Muslims and Hindus better Hindus.
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#14
The Holy Ghost only prevents councils from teaching error as doctrine.

And considering that VII did not intend to bind anyone dogmatically this doesn't apply.
Surréxit Dóminus vere, Alleluia!
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#15
(08-19-2019, 05:48 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(08-19-2019, 07:28 AM)Blind Horus Wrote: So yeah Zedta, it'a a good possibility that seat is vacant.

Not if one accepts what Catholic theologians, Popes and Councils say about the Nature of the Church: that it is a society.

If it is not a society, but merely a moral union of individuals, then the result is that Protestantism is true.

If it is a society, as the Church teaches, it is simply impossible that a society be without a head for a long time, because the authority is the cause of the union in a society, and the principle of movement. If a society is without a head, it is like a body which is without its head, or perhaps more like a chicken. It can seem to operate for a while, but eventually it will die. In the Church, the head can be replaced by a new election. Doesn't work for a chicken.

It might be one thing in 1970 to assert that there was no Pope, but to think that for nearly 50 years (nearly 2 generations) there has not only not been a head is impossible. That there is a false head is even worse, and it would mean that the Church has defected. Previous to these modern theories, the longest period without a Pope was two-and-a-half years. Now it's 50 or more?

It all sounds like a very neat and simple solution, indeed, but so does Protestantism and any heresy. Both ignore Church history and want too perfect a Church.

Those who are wrong are usually right about what is wrong, but wrong about what is right. I sympathize with those who see the crisis in the Church, but it simply isn't solved by this overly-simplistic solution.

Ah, so it be a protestant heretic name ye be putting on me then...well if that be the case here's a dopey protestant heretic video about another vacant seat



A good possibility? Perhaps...
Oh, where are the snows of yesteryear!
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#16
(08-18-2019, 11:20 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(08-18-2019, 09:56 PM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote: I like Fr Hesse's idea of making bumper stickers--no let's do car magnets:


Quote:                                                                               Forget Vatican II

How awesome is that? Just let's forget it ever happened. Like a bad dream we could wake up and it would be like it never really happened. It'd be so wonderful.

But doesn't a bumpersticker suggestion to forget something just remind one of that thing?


No, non, non. It's not the same thing. It's not quite like "Don't think about pink and purple elephants at a tea party." It's entirely different from that altogether. In reality we want them to think, see?

Forget Vatican II

When Father tells you "Don't kneel after [Holy] Communion, because of VII even though it's not part of VII just 

Forget Vatican II

Or when we should have girl alter servers and lady lecture because of VII, even though it's not in there either just

Forget Vatican II

Or when there's something, anything that goes against what we know to be Tradition, like waking up from a nightmare we can

Forget Vatican II

Forget Vatican II

Forget Vatican II
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#17
The confusion over the last several decades, which has further accelerated over the last six years, has made the Catholic Church operate effectively like Protestants. A typical Catholic apologetic argument against Protestantism is claiming they have "30,000" churches, all of which follow "sola scriptura" in varying ways, and therefore producing no cohesive "Protestant" theology. We are effectively no different, at least in practice. We may all attend a "Catholic" Church, but what is taught and believed among the faithful is inconsistent. The lack of clear teaching from the parish level all the way to the top has left the faithful scrambling for answers anywhere they can find them. The Catholic "faith on paper" is much different than what is actually practiced and taught today.
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#18
(08-28-2019, 11:03 PM)LionHippo Wrote: The confusion over the last several decades, which has further accelerated over the last six years, has made the Catholic Church operate effectively like Protestants.  A typical Catholic apologetic argument against Protestantism is claiming they have "30,000" churches, all of which follow "sola scriptura" in varying ways, and therefore producing no cohesive "Protestant" theology.  We are effectively no different, at least in practice. We may all attend a "Catholic" Church, but what is taught and believed among the faithful is inconsistent.  The lack of clear teaching from the parish level all the way to the top has left the faithful scrambling for answers anywhere they can find them.  The Catholic "faith on paper" is much different than what is actually practiced and taught today.

I completely agree. This is even prevalent among "traditionalists." I mean, we have the ICKSP, FSSP, SSPX each with their own ideas of how traditionalists should adhere to the post-Conciliar Church and interpret Vatican II. Not to mention the sea of lay-trads out there with their own fanbases and ideas of how the Church should operate. We as Catholics have no real leg to stand on when it comes to doctrinal cohesion.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#19
(08-28-2019, 11:18 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(08-28-2019, 11:03 PM)LionHippo Wrote: The confusion over the last several decades, which has further accelerated over the last six years, has made the Catholic Church operate effectively like Protestants.  A typical Catholic apologetic argument against Protestantism is claiming they have "30,000" churches, all of which follow "sola scriptura" in varying ways, and therefore producing no cohesive "Protestant" theology.  We are effectively no different, at least in practice. We may all attend a "Catholic" Church, but what is taught and believed among the faithful is inconsistent.  The lack of clear teaching from the parish level all the way to the top has left the faithful scrambling for answers anywhere they can find them.  The Catholic "faith on paper" is much different than what is actually practiced and taught today.

I completely agree. This is even prevalent among "traditionalists." I mean, we have the ICKSP, FSSP, SSPX each with their own ideas of how traditionalists should adhere to the post-Conciliar Church and interpret Vatican II. Not to mention the sea of lay-trads out there with their own fanbases and ideas of how the Church should operate. We as Catholics have no real leg to stand on when it comes to doctrinal cohesion.

Not really. We have the Creed and the Latin Mass. Any traditional Catholics going to adhere to the Baltimore Catechism.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#20
[quote pid='1402664' dateline='1566244629']
Mary T. wrote: Giving up the Boston Catechism was a huge, huge mistake.  Simple.  Allowed parents to teach the same thing at home as was learned in school.  I was very young when it was dropped, I only learned the first couple of questions/answers, but I still remember the basics of those questions.
[/quote]
My parents bought me two volumes of the Baltimore Catechism after I began CCD in grade school when I started in the second half of the Sixties, as the IHM nuns in L.A. heard transactional psychologist Carl Rogers speak (true), analyzed themselves, and en masse (ha) took off first their habits and then in my local case went off to harvest sugar cane in solidarity with Castro in Cuba. The order dwindled by 90% rapidly in revolt against our Cardinal McIntyre. Convent emptied, our parish was dumbfounded. Seemingly overnight, it all changed into coloring books and guitar singalongs. I am the first year of schoolkids probably to have no "lived memory" of the Tridentine. I learned from the B.C. far more about what was vanishing before my family's eyes than years of CCD.
The deeds you do may be the only sermon some people may hear today (Francis of Assisi); Win an argument, lose a soul (Fulton Sheen)
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