Spirit and Soul
#1
Soul and Spirit. What are they? How do they operate? What else do you know about them?
I recently set out to understand more about these topics, therefore I'm interested in what people in here have to say.
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#2
All I know is that St. Teresa said that she didn't know the difference between them. And I don't, either. Lol. Is there a difference? Are they interchangeable?  :huh:
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#3
I was hoping to get some opinions/theories on this topic first but seeing there isn't much happening I will talk about what I found.

Firstly I always thought that the spirit and the soul were the same thing. And as I researched the the topic I did indeed find some that claim that they are the same thing. However as I dug deeper I found that they seem to be two different things.

Our soul lives forever, some will go to heaven and others to hell. We are all souls with human bodies. When we die our souls are given new bodies, Paul explains this in 2 Corinthians 5:1-10, Romans 8:23, Philippians 3:21 it is also mentioned in many other books in the bible.
So when we die our souls will be judged by our lord.

Our spirit is basically our minds. It gives us a consciousness of self and other remarkable, though limited, “God-like” qualities. The human spirit includes our intellect, emotions, fears, passions, and creativity. It is this spirit that provides us the unique ability to comprehend and understand.
Therefore, man is able to think, feel, love, design, create, and enjoy music, humor, and art. And it is because of the human spirit that we have a “free will” that no other creature on earth has. I think it is our spirit that is infected with sin.

So lets apply that definition of spirit to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God's mind, it's God's will, God's mentality.
So someone who is filled with the Holy Spirit will not have thoughts of sin. When the apostles received the Holy Spirit they were transformed from people who were afraid and in hiding to people who were fearless in preaching. They began to boldly proclaim the Gospel free of any doubts or misconceptions. It was God's will acting on them. They were told by Jesus not to worry about what to say because the Holy Spirit within them would say the right words at the right times.

I also thought about the term Spiritual Warfare. Its the term Paul uses to describe our battle with the sinful temptations of Satan.
It's not a battle fought physically, instead it's a war which is fought in our own minds. It's a mental war.
Satan tempts us in our own minds with thoughts of sin and so I pray for the Holy Spirit to intervene so that I can stand against Satan's devices.
Our human spirit/minds are weak and prone to sin. When we die we will receive the Holy Spirit so that we will have Godly minds.

Despite the research I did on this topic I'm not at all claiming this to be undeniable fact. I came across different theories by different bible scholars.
I tend to feel like this theory might be the truth. The definition of spirit here fits very well with the terms Holy Spirit and Spiritual Warfare.
The term soul does indeed seem to conform to the part of us that will go on after death to be judged.

What do you guys think of my thoughts on this matter?
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#4
A soul needs a body, a spirit doesn't.

Angels are pure spirit, not corporeal in the least. No body. I'm guessing fallen angels, aka demons and devils, are pure spirit as well.

There is a unity of soul and body that makes us human. The body dies, the soul doesn't, but they'll get back together again somehow. That's how intertwined they are.

But the words are interchanged a lot. And sometimes man is attributed to have spirit, soul, and body. Sometimes a "spiritual soul" to combine the ideas. Maybe that spiritual part is more the quality of a soul, or a particular aspects of it as you describe above. Not sure, but sounds about right.

Bottom line though, a soul needs a body. "Spirit" is less defined, harder to nail down.

That's all I got this late at night. Cheers.
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#5
(08-31-2019, 05:28 AM)jack89 Wrote: A soul needs a body, a spirit doesn't.  

Angels are pure spirit, not corporeal in the least.  No body.  I'm guessing fallen angels, aka demons and devils, are pure spirit as well.

There is a unity of soul and body that makes us human.  The body dies, the soul doesn't, but they'll get back together again somehow.  That's how intertwined they are.  

But the words are interchanged a lot.  And sometimes man is attributed to have spirit, soul, and body.  Sometimes a "spiritual soul" to combine the ideas.  Maybe that spiritual part is more the quality of a soul, or a particular aspects of it as you describe above.  Not sure, but sounds about right.  

Bottom line though, a soul needs a body.  "Spirit" is less defined, harder to nail down.

That's all I got this late at night.  Cheers.

To piggyback on this, think of animals vs humans. Animals do not possess rationality, while humans do. Animals still have a soul because the soul is the essence/form of the body, as do humans, but the soul does not possess intellect/will. Intellect and will are faculties exclusive to rational creatures, tied to the spirit. Since animals do not possess rational faculties, but they clearly have an animating form, they have souls but not spirits. Whereas humans, possessing these faculties, have both a soul and a spirit. Although in common vernacular soul and spirit are both mashed into the same umbrella term as "soul" even though, ontologically, the soul and spirit are mutually separate things.

We can even look at the ontological composite of men and animals. Animals consist of the corporeal and a soul (corpus-anima). While men consist of a composite of the corporeal, a soul, and the spirit (corpus-anima-spiritus). And then to go further with what jack89 said; angels would just simply be spirit, spiritus, since they are pure intellect and will.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#6
Augustinian Wrote:To piggyback on this, think of animals vs humans. Animals do not possess rationality, while humans do. Animals still have a soul because the soul is the essence/form of the body, as do humans, but the soul does not possess intellect/will. Intellect and will are faculties exclusive to rational creatures, tied to the spirit. Since animals do not possess rational faculties, but they clearly have an animating form, they have souls but not spirits. Whereas humans, possessing these faculties, have both a soul and a spirit. Although in common vernacular soul and spirit are both mashed into the same umbrella term as "soul" even though, ontologically, the soul and spirit are mutually separate things.

We can even look at the ontological composite of men and animals. Animals consist of the corporeal and a soul (corpus-anima). While men consist of a composite of the corporeal, a soul, and the spirit (corpus-anima-spiritus). And then to go further with what jack89 said; angels would just simply be spirit, spiritus, since they are pure intellect and will.

Yeah good one. That make total sense. Cheers. Though it's bought up a question, LoL. 
With understanding comes more knowledge and questions, then with a further understanding of that knowledge comes even more knowledge and questions. It never stops does it?

How do u suppose animals get saved? Without rational minds they operate on instinct. This perhaps means that they are actually unable to sin. How can an animal possibly sin? Maybe they all get saved.
I'm just thinking out loud here. Any thoughts on the salvation of our pets and all the other 8.7 million species of animals on earth?
What about plants? They too are alive...
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#7
(08-31-2019, 12:08 PM)Porkncheese Wrote:
Augustinian Wrote:To piggyback on this, think of animals vs humans. Animals do not possess rationality, while humans do. Animals still have a soul because the soul is the essence/form of the body, as do humans, but the soul does not possess intellect/will. Intellect and will are faculties exclusive to rational creatures, tied to the spirit. Since animals do not possess rational faculties, but they clearly have an animating form, they have souls but not spirits. Whereas humans, possessing these faculties, have both a soul and a spirit. Although in common vernacular soul and spirit are both mashed into the same umbrella term as "soul" even though, ontologically, the soul and spirit are mutually separate things.

We can even look at the ontological composite of men and animals. Animals consist of the corporeal and a soul (corpus-anima). While men consist of a composite of the corporeal, a soul, and the spirit (corpus-anima-spiritus). And then to go further with what jack89 said; angels would just simply be spirit, spiritus, since they are pure intellect and will.

Yeah good one. That make total sense. Cheers. Though it's bought up a question, LoL. 
With understanding comes more knowledge and questions, then with a further understanding of that knowledge comes even more knowledge and questions. It never stops does it?

How do u suppose animals get saved? Without rational minds they operate on instinct. This perhaps means that they are actually unable to sin. How can an animal possibly sin? Maybe they all get saved.
I'm just thinking out loud here. Any thoughts on the salvation of our pets and all the other 8.7 million species of animals on earth?
What about plants? They too are alive...

We don't know definitively, but St Thomas Aquinas was of the opinion that animals are not saved, simply annihilated, because they lack rationality, which is the eternal part of the soul; the spirit. We need to also keep in mind that sin, and subsequently death, were introduced into the world through Adam. And sin has cosmological effects beyond just the state of the human soul, so perhaps it affects the souls of animals as well? I don't know for certain.

It's not something that can be answered unless we make it to heaven. I'm of the opinion that their souls simply dissipate once they reach the preternatural realm and return to the Mind of God.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#8
(08-31-2019, 12:27 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(08-31-2019, 12:08 PM)Porkncheese Wrote:
Augustinian Wrote:To piggyback on this, think of animals vs humans. Animals do not possess rationality, while humans do. Animals still have a soul because the soul is the essence/form of the body, as do humans, but the soul does not possess intellect/will. Intellect and will are faculties exclusive to rational creatures, tied to the spirit. Since animals do not possess rational faculties, but they clearly have an animating form, they have souls but not spirits. Whereas humans, possessing these faculties, have both a soul and a spirit. Although in common vernacular soul and spirit are both mashed into the same umbrella term as "soul" even though, ontologically, the soul and spirit are mutually separate things.

We can even look at the ontological composite of men and animals. Animals consist of the corporeal and a soul (corpus-anima). While men consist of a composite of the corporeal, a soul, and the spirit (corpus-anima-spiritus). And then to go further with what jack89 said; angels would just simply be spirit, spiritus, since they are pure intellect and will.

Yeah good one. That make total sense. Cheers. Though it's bought up a question, LoL. 
With understanding comes more knowledge and questions, then with a further understanding of that knowledge comes even more knowledge and questions. It never stops does it?

How do u suppose animals get saved? Without rational minds they operate on instinct. This perhaps means that they are actually unable to sin. How can an animal possibly sin? Maybe they all get saved.
I'm just thinking out loud here. Any thoughts on the salvation of our pets and all the other 8.7 million species of animals on earth?
What about plants? They too are alive...

We don't know definitively, but St Thomas Aquinas was of the opinion that animals are not saved, simply annihilated, because they lack rationality, which is the eternal part of the soul; the spirit. We need to also keep in mind that sin, and subsequently death, were introduced into the world through Adam. And sin has cosmological effects beyond just the state of the human soul, so perhaps it affects the souls of animals as well? I don't know for certain.

It's not something that can be answered unless we make it to heaven. I'm of the opinion that their souls simply dissipate once they reach the preternatural realm and return to the Mind of God.

Yeah its unknowable but interesting to consider.
I think that the soul lives on either in heaven or hell and that its our spirit (our minds) that is infected with sin.
Without rational consciousness I cannot think of any way that animals can possibly sin.
Maybe God's love would be too great to annihilate and dissipate so many beautiful creatures which he himself created even before humans

If my earlier definition of spirit is correct it's our rationality. This in turn will be filled with the Holy Spirit, pure unsinful rationality if we make it to the Lords kingdom.

Im reminded of Saint Anthony's sermon to the fishes and St Francis' sermon to the birds.
I hope they all of God's creatures are saved through God's mercy and grace.

But as u said we'll never know here on this earth
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#9
(08-31-2019, 01:17 PM)Porkncheese Wrote: Yeah its unknowable but interesting to consider.
I think that the soul lives on either in heaven or hell and that its our spirit (our minds) that is infected with sin.
Without rational consciousness I cannot think of any way that animals can possibly sin.
Maybe God's love would be too great to annihilate and dissipate so many beautiful creatures which he himself created even before humans

If my earlier definition of spirit is correct it's our rationality. This in turn will be filled with the Holy Spirit, pure unsinful rationality if we make it to the Lords kingdom.

Im reminded of Saint Anthony's sermon to the fishes and St Francis' sermon to the birds.
I hope they all of God's creatures are saved through God's mercy and grace.

But as u said we'll never know here on this earth

I should say that I don't mean that animals sin. They don't. They're incapable of it because they do not possess reason or the will to disobey God. What I meant was that they simply suffer effects of our sins. In a way, they still have some sort of Edenic innocence because they still act according to the nature God bestowed upon them. Whereas men act against their nature, which is to be in the image and likeness of God, and fall into sin.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#10
(08-31-2019, 12:08 PM)Porkncheese Wrote: How do u suppose animals get saved? Without rational minds they operate on instinct. This perhaps means that they are actually unable to sin. How can an animal possibly sin? Maybe they all get saved.
I'm just thinking out loud here. Any thoughts on the salvation of our pets and all the other 8.7 million species of animals on earth?
What about plants? They too are alive...

Sin is a willful choice against the known moral order. If a being does not have a will, it cannot choose, and so by definition cannot sin. Similarly when we are not capable of using our will (in infancy, or during sleep) we also cannot sin. Sin is in the will. No will = no sin.

The will follows on intellectual knowledge. Heaven is essentially the intellectual vision of God forever. Heaven is therefore impossible for whatever lacks an intellect. That means irrational animals and plants are not "saved" nor do they go to heaven.

The soul of an animal or plant is educed from its matter when that matter is fit for life. When the matter is no longer fit for life, the soul corrupts and is destroyed. Animals and plants are finite creatures. Fido dies and Fido's soul is annihilated. His soul is not immortal, so it does not go anywhere once his body dies. It simply ceases to exist. His form (soul) is replaced by a composite of other forms (corpse) which then decay into other forms and eventually into worm food, etc.

No dogs go to heaven, because they are incapable of heaven, which is essentially this intellectual vision. Neither plants, nor cats, nor anything.

Only human beings and angels (as far as we know), because we along have a spiritual soul and thus intellect and will, are capable of Heaven. So animals and plants are not "saved". They are produced by natural forced, and then die and are permanently gone.
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