Biblical evidence for the Assumption, Coronation, and Immaculate Conception of Mary?
#31
A lot of Catholics would come across these Marian questions along with others, most likely after reading the bible.
Would calling them heretics, blasphemers and protestants be a good way to guide them? No, It will only drive them away.
Is that what we want to do, drive people away? Is that what God wants us to do?
The church doesn't demand people pray to Hail Mary. Neither should anyone else.
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#32
(09-05-2019, 01:51 AM)Porkncheese Wrote: A lot of Catholics would come across these Marian questions along with others, most likely after reading the bible.
Would calling them heretics, blasphemers and protestants be a good way to guide them? No, It will only drive them away.
Is that what we want to do, drive people away? Is that what God wants us to do?
The church doesn't demand people pray to Hail Mary. Neither should anyone else.

I understand that many Catholics take devotion to Mary very seriously and I understand that Marian doctrine is a dogma of the Church and must be accepted as such. However, like you say, I can't stand the reaction I and others so often receive (at least in online circles) from Catholics who treat those genuinely looking for answers like heretics whenever they ask probing questions or express any doubts about Mary.

Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, I pray the rosary and practice Marian devotion (I do so out of a sense of duty but also because I enjoy it), yet I often wonder as to the necessity of these practices, while not at all questioning the legitimacy of the Church or any of its other dogmas, or even Mary herself, whom I admire for her humilty and obedience to the Divine Will and her important role in the Incarnation. Yet I find the intensity of some Marian devotions to be off-putting in how much they seem to me to over-emphasize Mary's role in our salvation (and how the devotees often retort that you can never over-emphasize her).

Why do I have to find salvation in Christ through Mary? Why can't I have a direct, personal relationship with Christ? There are many saints who, while not necessarily omitting Mary, had strong personal devotions to Christ (St. Francis being a key example). Why is it suddenly so blasphemous if I say I would like the same?

Speaking of blasphemy, I've seen time and again strong Marian devotees who repeatedly consider her divine. Of course, they are always quickly reminded by others that she isn't divine, that she is a creature like any other human being, but you can see how common such thinking would be based on how she is often presented and venerated. Given that she is the Immaculata, the Queen of Heaven, and we pray to her to affect our salvation, there really is a fine line between her being human and being divine, so the confusion is understandable.

In asking for Biblical evidence for these dogmas surrounding Mary, I'm often confronted with the retort that Catholics don't believe in sola scriptura and we don't need the Bible to prove any of our beliefs or practices. Yet, we use the Bible to provide the basis for our belief in the rudiments of the faith: e.g. Christ's death and resurrection, the Eucharist, Heaven and Hell, the Holy Trinity, baptism; even more contested beliefs like the papal office, purgatory, and the intercession of the saints in general can all quite easily be supported by Scripture.

Yet why is it that Mary's Assumption (an event that would merit as much documentation as Christ's ascension especially since she was presumably living with the Beloved Apostle at the time or her death), her coronation, and immaculate conception (note: I do not at all doubt her perpetual virginity or being the Mother of God) have no Biblical basis? Why is it essential that I believe that Mary is the literal Queen of Heaven, crown and all? What if these beliefs distract from or act as a deterrent to belief in Christ?

People who condemn any questions about Mary as Protestants and who decry the need for any Biblical justification for Catholic beliefs do a great disservice, both to the catechesis of Catholics trying to undersrand their faith, as well as the evangelization of Protestants or anyone outside the Church, for that matter. Many people simply prefer Christ-centered prayer and devotions and yearn for a personal relationship with Him. Is it inherently anti-Catholic to do so? Is it inherently anti-Catholic look to sacred Scripture for answers as to why we as Catholics believe and practice what we do? Maybe it's not the only authoritative source, but it is a foundation of the Christian faith - and yes, the Church compiled it, which only elevates it even more so.

A lot of this reaction seems to stem from a kneejerk anti-Protestantism; that, because Protestants don't recognize Mary, the Catholic in question must then hyper devote himself to Mary and violently defend her from any perceived criticism in order to prove what an orthodox Catholic he is (interestingly, many of these sorts tend to be ex-Protestants, as well). Which is nothing against these sorts of Catholics. I, too, am a revert. I just wish there was more compassion and discussion and less condemnation regarding this subject.
Omnia et in omnibus Christus
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#33
(09-05-2019, 01:51 AM)Porkncheese Wrote: A lot of Catholics would come across these Marian questions along with others, most likely after reading the bible.

Sure.

(09-05-2019, 01:51 AM)Porkncheese Wrote: Would calling them heretics, blasphemers and protestants be a good way to guide them? No, It will only drive them away.

Depends, we should be able to say X or Y is heresy, we should never judge people but we can judge teaching.

(09-05-2019, 01:51 AM)Porkncheese Wrote: Is that what we want to do, drive people away?


Are you blackmailing me? lol :P

(09-05-2019, 01:51 AM)Porkncheese Wrote: Is that what God wants us to do?

I see what you did there. :D

(09-05-2019, 01:51 AM)Porkncheese Wrote: The church doesn't demand people pray to Hail Mary. Neither should anyone else.

The 'Hail Mary' is in the bible itself, also given the Marian Dogmas it's really a non issue to get hung up on, it's like focusing on a loophole that really doesn't have anything to do with the heart of the issue that your stuck on.

Have you watched the 2 videos I shared?





The 1st one is Scott Hahn speaking of the scriptural basis and exposing some of the errors you quoted earlier like the idea that the Blessed Virgin Mary Queen of Heaven and Earth had other children (there was no word for cousins back then, they were Jesus' cousins not brothers) and the 2nd video explains why your prone to getting the reactions you did when putting forth such errors in the way you did.

God Bless You :)
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#34
(09-05-2019, 01:51 AM)Porkncheese Wrote: A lot of Catholics would come across these Marian questions along with others, most likely after reading the bible.

Not usually, at least not if they were being properly Catechized.

A Catholic is meant to study his Catechism and learn his Faith, then develop a good spiritual life  before setting out to try to read Scripture on his own and come up with answers. That's not to say that reading Scripture is bad—hardly— but if he going through the process that Catholics have done for centuries, a Catholic would not be presented with these Marian questions by reading Scripture. He would know the dogmas and doctrines, then be able to read Scripture correctly.

(09-05-2019, 01:51 AM)Porkncheese Wrote: Would calling them heretics, blasphemers and protestants be a good way to guide them? No, It will only drive them away.
Is that what we want to do, drive people away? Is that what God wants us to do?

Someone who comes with a legitimate doubt that they are trying to solve is not a heretic or blasphemer. He should be given answers, but someone with honest doubts will be docile to the teaching of the Church, and ready to try to understand.

Someone who outright denies or willfully doubts what the Church has demanded is a heretic. Pointing out the error is true Charity. It is one of the Spiritual Works of Mercy.

It is true Charity to point out heresy and error with due prudence, because someone who willfully doubts or rejects even a single dogma of the Faith risks his soul over it. If he knows the truth and rejects it, that is a mortal sin against the Faith, and until he rejects and repents, he is carving out his place in Hell. A Catholic worthy of that name does not want a single soul to go there, so in Charity must correct error.

The method needs to be prudent, but firmness is needed.

(09-05-2019, 01:51 AM)Porkncheese Wrote: The church doesn't demand people pray to Hail Mary. Neither should anyone else.

She does not oblige you under pain of sin from reciting a Hail Mary, but neither does she force you to breathe. Nevertheless both are necessary, and Marian devotion even more so, because it is Supernatural and willed by God.

A soul who willfully dismisses the praying of the Hail Mary will not be saved, plain and simple. He is neglecting the means that God has given. He is offending Jesus Christ by failing to honor His Mother, which He desires. we know this because He has had the Church constantly proclaim Her dignity over and over again. If the Catholic Church speaks for Christ—and she does—listen to Her.

Pope St Pius X writes that the "Virgin is more powerful than all others as a means for uniting mankind with Christ." (Ad Diem Illum, no.8)

Pope Leo XIII could write : "In Mary, God has given us the most zealous guardian of Christian unity. There are, of course, more ways than one to win her protection by prayer, but as for Us, We think that the best and most effective way to her favor lies in the Rosary...The very origin of the Rosary makes that plain. When such faith is exercised by vocally repeating the Our Father and Hail Mary of the Rosary prayers, or better still in the contemplation of the mysteries, it is evident how close we are brought to Mary." (Adjutricem, 24-25)

Pius XII warns that "Non-Catholics and reformers are therefore mistaken when because of this pretext they find fault with, or disapprove of, our devotion to the Virgin Mother of God, as if it took something from the worship due to God alone and to Jesus Christ. The contrary is true because any honor and veneration which we may give to our Heavenly Mother undoubtedly redounds to the glory of her Divine Son, not only because all graces and all gifts, even the highest, flow from Him as from their primary source, but also because "The glory of children are their fathers" (Prov, 17.6). (Fulgens Corona, 15)

In another letter he writes "We well know the Rosary's powerful efficacy to obtain the maternal aid of the Virgin. By no means is there only one way to pray to obtain this aid. However, We consider the Holy Rosary the most convenient and most fruitful means, as is clearly suggested by the very origin of this practice, heavenly rather than human, and by its nature. What prayers are better adapted and more beautiful than the Lord's prayer and the angelic salutation, which are the flowers with which this mystical crown is formed?" (Ingruentium malorum, 8)

St Alphonsus Liguori could say that "the intercession of Mary is even necessary to salvation." (The Glories of Mary)

St Louis Marie Grignon de Montfort wrote that "in consequence of His will, she is far more necessary to men, in order that they may attain their last end. We must not confuse devotion to the Blessed Virgin with devotions to the other Saints, as if devotion to her were not far more necessary than devotion to them."

St Thomas Aquinas, the pre-eminent theologian of the Church would write that : "The Blessed Virgin, because she is the Mother of God, has a certain infinite dignity from the infinite good, which is God". (Summa Theologiae, I, q.25, a.6, ad 4)

Add to this the Blessed Virgin herself has appeared, and the Church has confirmed this as credible. In those apparition, and especially the more recent ones, the Rosary was recommended as a daily prayer.

Hundreds of more quotes from the Fathers of the Church could be cited, but the point, I think is clear. Marian devotion is necessary for salvation because this is the economy of salvation God has designed. If one wishes a different means that what God has designed, then he is no different than Adam, wishing a means aside from what God planned for his happiness.

So give what all of the Popes and Saints have said about the importance, dignity and necessity of devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary it is safe to say that someone who does not want to say a Hail Mary cannot truly be called a Catholic.

And more to the exact claim, the Church certainly can requires us, under pain of sin, to recite a Hail Mary. If one goes into Confession and is given the Hail Mary as part of his penance, he is obliged to recite it else he commits sin. The Church obliges the recitation of the Hail Mary by the priest in various parts of his Brevairy and Office. Parts of the Hail Mary are contained in propers of the Mass.
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#35
(09-05-2019, 04:57 AM)whitewashed_tomb Wrote: I understand that many Catholics take devotion to Mary very seriously and I understand that Marian doctrine is a dogma of the Church and must be accepted as such. However, like you say, I can't stand the reaction I and others so often receive (at least in online circles) from Catholics who treat those genuinely looking for answers like heretics whenever they ask probing questions or express any doubts about Mary.

No one here is adverse to answering questions, even hard ones for those genuinely looking for answers.

Asking questions is far different that what one finds above, which is outright denial of Marian dogmas and the Church's judgement.

It is one thing to ask "How do you reconcile the Perpetual Virginity with what seems to be Jesus' brothers in Scripture?" That's a fine question.

It is something entirely other to say, as one person has above, that clearly Mary had sex with Joseph after Jesus was born because he has brothers. That's a statement and assertion, not a question. Someone who makes such a statement isn't looking for answers, or at least does not appear to be. It is too adversarial to be asking questions and then being docile to the Church's wisdom to find answers.

Even when adversarial, a docile person couches what that say with "it seems like" or "I don't understand how" or things like this. Not bare assertions which contradict the Faith.

(09-05-2019, 04:57 AM)whitewashed_tomb Wrote: Why do I have to find salvation in Christ through Mary? Why can't I have a direct, personal relationship with Christ? There are many saints who, while not necessarily omitting Mary, had strong personal devotions to Christ (St. Francis being a key example). Why is it suddenly so blasphemous if I say I would like the same?

St Francis had a very deep devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary. That church that he "rebuilt" by mistake, the Portiuncula, was dedicated to Our Lady of the Angels. The very first thing St Francis did was build a church dedicated to Our Lady. St Bonaventure, one of the great Franciscan theologians, asserts that the core of St Francis' devotion was to the Blessed Virgin as Queen, Advocate and Mother.

The reason for the importance of Marian devotion is highlighted above in what I wrote, but essentially the reason we "have to find salvation in Christ through Mary" is because that is how God has designed the economy of salvation. Jesus Christ came to us through Mary, and he wants us to go to Him through Mary.

(09-05-2019, 04:57 AM)whitewashed_tomb Wrote: Speaking of blasphemy, I've seen time and again strong Marian devotees who repeatedly consider her divine. Of course, they are always quickly reminded by others that she isn't divine, that she is a creature like any other human being, but you can see how common such thinking would be based on how she is often presented and venerated. Given that she is the Immaculata, the Queen of Heaven, and we pray to her to affect our salvation, there really is a fine line between her being human and being divine, so the confusion is understandable.

To intentionally defame the Saints or anything holy, is also a form of blasphemy. Blasphemy is sacrilege by words.

(09-05-2019, 04:57 AM)whitewashed_tomb Wrote: In asking for Biblical evidence for these dogmas surrounding Mary, I'm often confronted with the retort that Catholics don't believe in sola scriptura and we don't need the Bible to prove any of our beliefs or practices. Yet, we use the Bible to provide the basis for our belief in the rudiments of the faith: e.g. Christ's death and resurrection, the Eucharist, Heaven and Hell, the Holy Trinity, baptism; even more contested beliefs like the papal office, purgatory, and the intercession of the saints in general can all quite easily be supported by Scripture.

We use the Bible as one part of Divine Tradition. There is much more than just this written part, and many people have a Protestant attitude that if it is certain it must be found in Scripture, so this is an important point to note.

What should be noted is that the Bible helps us to back up the Faith, but what it records, even if Divinely Inspired, does not cause the mysteries, but it helps reveal them. They exist, and Scripture is one proof, but the Faith existed before Scripture. People believed in the Resurrection before they read about it in the Gospels.

(09-05-2019, 04:57 AM)whitewashed_tomb Wrote: Yet why is it that Mary's Assumption (an event that would merit as much documentation as Christ's ascension especially since she was presumably living with the Beloved Apostle at the time or her death), her coronation, and immaculate conception (note: I do not at all doubt her perpetual virginity or being the Mother of God) have no Biblical basis? Why is it essential that I believe that Mary is the literal Queen of Heaven, crown and all? What if these beliefs distract from or act as a deterrent to belief in Christ?

Because not everything is in Scripture. Heck, we don't even have texts in Scripture for what most of the Apostles did from A.D. 33 onward. We know about only a few of them, and even then only cursory details. Most of what we know, and even big events like the martyrdom of Peter and Paul isn't in Scripture.

If such things distract, then they probably are not being understood properly.

(09-05-2019, 04:57 AM)whitewashed_tomb Wrote: People who condemn any questions about Mary as Protestants and who decry the need for any Biblical justification for Catholic beliefs do a great disservice, both to the catechesis of Catholics trying to undersrand their faith, as well as the evangelization of Protestants or anyone outside the Church, for that matter.

And no one here is doing that or has done that.

(09-05-2019, 04:57 AM)whitewashed_tomb Wrote: Many people simply prefer Christ-centered prayer and devotions and yearn for a personal relationship with Him. Is it inherently anti-Catholic to do so?

It depends on what that means and entails. If it throws away the wisdom of the Church and substitutes one's own opinions and feelings for 2,000 years of history and Divine guidance, then yes.

(09-05-2019, 04:57 AM)whitewashed_tomb Wrote: Is it inherently anti-Catholic look to sacred Scripture for answers as to why we as Catholics believe and practice what we do? Maybe it's not the only authoritative source, but it is a foundation of the Christian faith - and yes, the Church compiled it, which only elevates it even more so.

It is not inherently anti-Catholic to do so, but there is a great danger in the approach, because it's not a Catholic attitude. Such an approach outside of theological circles came about with Protestantism, so already is on bad footing. When divorced from the skeptical attitude which would assume Catholic practices wrong until found in Scripture, then there may be value.

(09-05-2019, 04:57 AM)whitewashed_tomb Wrote: A lot of this reaction seems to stem from a kneejerk anti-Protestantism; that, because Protestants don't recognize Mary, the Catholic in question must then hyper devote himself to Mary and violently defend her from any perceived criticism in order to prove what an orthodox Catholic he is (interestingly, many of these sorts tend to be ex-Protestants, as well). Which is nothing against these sorts of Catholics. I, too, am a revert. I just wish there was more compassion and discussion and less condemnation regarding this subject.

Sometimes it is reactionary, but given the Church has consistently, regularly and in no uncertain terms praised, recommended and spoken of the near necessity of Marian devotion, I think it is more than just a reactionary attitude.
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#36
(09-05-2019, 04:57 AM)whitewashed_tomb Wrote: I understand that many Catholics take devotion to Mary very seriously and I understand that Marian doctrine is a dogma of the Church and must be accepted as such. However, like you say, I can't stand the reaction I and others so often receive (at least in online circles) from Catholics who treat those genuinely looking for answers like heretics whenever they ask probing questions or express any doubts about Mary.

Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, I pray the rosary and practice Marian devotion (I do so out of a sense of duty but also because I enjoy it), yet I often wonder as to the necessity of these practices, while not at all questioning the legitimacy of the Church or any of its other dogmas, or even Mary herself, whom I admire for her humilty and obedience to the Divine Will and her important role in the Incarnation. Yet I find the intensity of some Marian devotions to be off-putting in how much they seem to me to over-emphasize Mary's role in our salvation (and how the devotees often retort that you can never over-emphasize her).

Why do I have to find salvation in Christ through Mary? Why can't I have a direct, personal relationship with Christ? There are many saints who, while not necessarily omitting Mary, had strong personal devotions to Christ (St. Francis being a key example). Why is it suddenly so blasphemous if I say I would like the same?

Speaking of blasphemy, I've seen time and again strong Marian devotees who repeatedly consider her divine. Of course, they are always quickly reminded by others that she isn't divine, that she is a creature like any other human being, but you can see how common such thinking would be based on how she is often presented and venerated. Given that she is the Immaculata, the Queen of Heaven, and we pray to her to affect our salvation, there really is a fine line between her being human and being divine, so the confusion is understandable.

In asking for Biblical evidence for these dogmas surrounding Mary, I'm often confronted with the retort that Catholics don't believe in sola scriptura and we don't need the Bible to prove any of our beliefs or practices. Yet, we use the Bible to provide the basis for our belief in the rudiments of the faith: e.g. Christ's death and resurrection, the Eucharist, Heaven and Hell, the Holy Trinity, baptism; even more contested beliefs like the papal office, purgatory, and the intercession of the saints in general can all quite easily be supported by Scripture.

Yet why is it that Mary's Assumption (an event that would merit as much documentation as Christ's ascension especially since she was presumably living with the Beloved Apostle at the time or her death), her coronation, and immaculate conception (note: I do not at all doubt her perpetual virginity or being the Mother of God) have no Biblical basis? Why is it essential that I believe that Mary is the literal Queen of Heaven, crown and all? What if these beliefs distract from or act as a deterrent to belief in Christ?

People who condemn any questions about Mary as Protestants and who decry the need for any Biblical justification for Catholic beliefs do a great disservice, both to the catechesis of Catholics trying to undersrand their faith, as well as the evangelization of Protestants or anyone outside the Church, for that matter. Many people simply prefer Christ-centered prayer and devotions and yearn for a personal relationship with Him. Is it inherently anti-Catholic to do so? Is it inherently anti-Catholic look to sacred Scripture for answers as to why we as Catholics believe and practice what we do? Maybe it's not the only authoritative source, but it is a foundation of the Christian faith - and yes, the Church compiled it, which only elevates it even more so.

A lot of this reaction seems to stem from a kneejerk anti-Protestantism; that, because Protestants don't recognize Mary, the Catholic in question must then hyper devote himself to Mary and violently defend her from any perceived criticism in order to prove what an orthodox Catholic he is (interestingly, many of these sorts tend to be ex-Protestants, as well). Which is nothing against these sorts of Catholics. I, too, am a revert. I just wish there was more compassion and discussion and less condemnation regarding this subject.

Yes I know. There seems to be a group of Catholics who have become a Marian cult. Making Hail Mary mandatory for everyone despite the Catholic church not demanding as such.
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#37
(09-05-2019, 09:49 AM)Porkncheese Wrote: Yes I know. There seems to be a group of Catholics who have become a Marian cult. Making Hail Mary mandatory for everyone despite the Catholic church not demanding as such.

A serious question, do you read the responses people make to?

Has not MM's post explained that the Church can, and in fact does, mandate devotion to the Virgin Mary? 

If you want people to take you seriously it helps to take others seriously.
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#38
(09-05-2019, 04:57 AM)whitewashed_tomb Wrote: In asking for Biblical evidence for these dogmas surrounding Mary, I'm often confronted with the retort that Catholics don't believe in sola scriptura and we don't need the Bible to prove any of our beliefs or practices. Yet, we use the Bible to provide the basis for our belief in the rudiments of the faith: e.g. Christ's death and resurrection, the Eucharist, Heaven and Hell, the Holy Trinity, baptism; even more contested beliefs like the papal office, purgatory, and the intercession of the saints in general can all quite easily be supported by Scripture.

No, we don't.

There's support for all those things in the Bible, but we believe in them because the Church says that's what we're to believe. John 6 is support for the Eucharist and transubstantiation, but the Protestants read that same chapter and deny that it really is His flesh and blood. They interpret it symbolically.

The Orthodox deny that Matthew 16, 18 means that the Bishop of Rome has authority over all other bishops; Protestants claim the "rock" is Peter's faith and it has nothing to do with the papacy, or even if they admit some authority for Peter, they deny that it was passed on.

The Arians even denied the divinity of Christ, despite "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." It took several Church councils to figure out the nature of God and of Jesus, with all sorts of heresies along the way.

Purgatory makes sense if there's sin which is deadly, and sin which is not deadly, but nothing imperfect can enter heaven. Yet the Protestants deny it, and even deny that prayers for the dead do anything, which must mean that II Machabees can't be Scripture.

As St Paul wrote to Timothy (which we only know to be inspired because the Church tells us it was), "These things I write to thee, hoping that I shall come to thee shortly. But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." The Church is why we believe things, not the Bible, even if the reasons are found in Scripture and Tradition.
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#39
(09-05-2019, 10:12 AM)Alphonse il Segundo Wrote:
(09-05-2019, 09:49 AM)Porkncheese Wrote: Yes I know. There seems to be a group of Catholics who have become a Marian cult. Making Hail Mary mandatory for everyone despite the Catholic church not demanding as such.

A serious question, do you read the responses people make to?

Has not MM's post explained that the Church can, and in fact does, mandate devotion to the Virgin Mary? 

If you want people to take you seriously it helps to take others seriously.

My priest said that Marian devotion isn't required by the church. His authority is greater than anyone else here.
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#40
(09-05-2019, 11:45 AM)Porkncheese Wrote:
(09-05-2019, 10:12 AM)Alphonse il Segundo Wrote:
(09-05-2019, 09:49 AM)Porkncheese Wrote: Yes I know. There seems to be a group of Catholics who have become a Marian cult. Making Hail Mary mandatory for everyone despite the Catholic church not demanding as such.

A serious question, do you read the responses people make to?

Has not MM's post explained that the Church can, and in fact does, mandate devotion to the Virgin Mary? 

If you want people to take you seriously it helps to take others seriously.

My priest said that Marian devotion isn't required by the church. His authority is greater than anyone else here.

His authority does abrogate the Church's authority. 

No priest, bishop or pope can do anything or say anything to dispense with what the Church has always taught. 

If I know contraception is immoral, a mortal sin, and my priest tells me to go an do it, he is wrong. His authority doesn't override the moral teaching of natural and divine law.

Your priest can't tell you that the Hypostatic union, or the Trinity or Virgin Birth or any doctrine are optional.

I would also ask, does your parish priest pray the Divine Office? Does he celebrate Mass? If he does, he will recite the Ave Maria. He has sing the Marian antiphons. He has to celebrate masses in honor of the Virgin.

Like MM points out above, those are two instances when the Catholic Church binds individuals to Marian devotion, under pain of sin.
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