Integralism, yes or no?
#1
In recent times, I have been much invested in reading, thinking and coming to conclusions about things of a Political Science nature (although it has been a long-standing interest of mine anyway), such as to do with the ideologies of Conservatism and Liberalism.

There has also in recent years been the online discussion of Integralism and this has centred on the disagreement (and subsequent debate) between Sohrab Ahmari and David French during this past year.

For as long as I can remember, I have completely agreed with Integralism (even before I knew the word!) and have lately realised that Conservatism is nothing more than Right-leaning Liberalism.

Therefore I am in complete agreement with Sohrab Ahmari, even though he apparently doesn't consider himself an Integralist and may have led himself to suffer from a lack of clarity and/or consistency as a result.

What are your thoughts on Integralism or the Ahmari-French debate or both?
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#2
I am definitely an integralist in as far as we understand it as the application of Catholic Social Teaching and/or the definition provided by The Josias on their blog.

My main issue with integralism is that many (not necessarily a majority, I am not claiming that) of the people I have found associating themselves with it on twitter are little more than thinly veiled socialists, progressives, leftists, etc. Like all left-wingers their favorite topics of discussion are immigration, healthcare, gun control, worker's wages and environmentalism. These same leftists also tend to be hyper-papalists who near worship Pope Francis.
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#3
(09-11-2019, 09:58 AM)Some Guy Wrote: I am definitely an integralist in as far as we understand it as the application of Catholic Social Teaching and/or the definition provided by The Josias on their blog.

My main issue with integralism is that many (not necessarily a majority, I am not claiming that) of the people I have found associating themselves with it on twitter are little more than thinly veiled socialists, progressives, leftists, etc. Like all left-wingers their favorite topics of discussion are immigration, healthcare, gun control, worker's wages and environmentalism. These same leftists also tend to be hyper-papalists who near worship Pope Francis.

While I'm still working my way through the output of The Josias, I like what I've read so far.

You must have much more experience in this regard than I do though because I didn't know any of those (Left-wing) people were associated with it, wouldn't have expected it and can't see why they would be, but I share your concern.
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#4
Yea The Josias is the bomb.

I would just take some time to read the Twitter feeds of Adrian Vermuele and Susannah Black. Branch out from there what you naturally find. I like a lot of what I've read from both of those people. But it seemed to me, the more tweets I read from them and the more I payed attention to the people they retweeted or would like their tweets, the more uneasy and confused I got.

Two solid sites, but again I feel tend to be less conservative/reactionary/traditional and more progressive is Fair Forward and Post Liberal Thought.

I took a real deep dive for a month on this little corner of the web and I feel like I learned a lot (ESPECIALLY from listneing to The Josias podcast) and heard a lot of well articulated ideas, even if they were more Left than I was typically cool with, but at the same time... The experience made me hesitant to want to claim "integralism" as my own.
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#5
(09-11-2019, 11:01 AM)Some Guy Wrote: Yea The Josias is the bomb.

I would just take some time to read the Twitter feeds of Adrian Vermuele and Susannah Black. Branch out from there what you naturally find. I like a lot of what I've read from both of those people. But it seemed to me, the more tweets I read from them and the more I payed attention to the people they retweeted or would like their tweets, the more uneasy and confused I got.

Encountered Adrian Vermeule, but not Susannah Black yet. The former seemed ok but I'll have to see (albeit tentatively) with both of them going forward.

Quote:Two solid sites, but again I feel tend to be less conservative/reactionary/traditional and more progressive is Fair Forward and Post Liberal Thought.

It's funny you should mention the words 'reactionary' and 'traditional' because as part of my recent conclusions, I now know that it isn't Liberal vs. Conservative, but Revolutionary, Liberal, Modernist vs. Counter Revolutionary, Reactionary/Integralist, Traditionalist (and that even all of the latter options only work in a Catholic context).

Quote:I took a real deep dive for a month on this little corner of the web and I feel like I learned a lot (ESPECIALLY from listneing to The Josias podcast) and heard a lot of well articulated ideas, even if they were more Left than I was typically cool with, but at the same time... The experience made me hesitant to want to claim "integralism" as my own.

On the contrary, you (and I and everyone who cares about what's right) should claim Integralism as your own and not concede it to those to whom it doesn't belong and who will then corrupt it.
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#6
(09-11-2019, 08:22 AM)Stephanus ignotum Wrote: For as long as I can remember, I have completely agreed with Integralism (even before I knew the word!) and have lately realised that Conservatism is nothing more than Right-leaning Liberalism.

I remember the wake-up call I received once I realized this a couple years ago. Not even so-called conservatives can call themselves such when they support such things as homosexuality and a libertine, irreverent culture.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

'Vanity of vanities, said Ecclesiastes: vanity of vanities, and all is vanity.' - Ecclesiastes 1:2

Malachi Martin was right.
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#7
I've been an integralist for over 30 years and I've called myself that for that long, but then my politics was formed by integralists (or integristes) like de Maistre, Bonald, Donoso Cortes, and other European Catholic thinkers. I've never been much tempted by American 'conservatism', which is just the liberal wolf in sheep's clothing.
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#8
Conservative writer John Zmirak has been vigorously writing against Catholic Integralism for a while now. He's got alot of articles. Not saying I agree but his perspective is interesting.

https://stream.org/tradinistas-angry-chu...breathing/
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#9
(09-11-2019, 06:08 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(09-11-2019, 08:22 AM)Stephanus ignotum Wrote: For as long as I can remember, I have completely agreed with Integralism (even before I knew the word!) and have lately realised that Conservatism is nothing more than Right-leaning Liberalism.

I remember the wake-up call I received once I realized this a couple years ago. Not even so-called conservatives can call themselves such when they support such things as homosexuality and a libertine, irreverent culture.

Absolutely and it is stuck within a Liberal democratic framework, hence doomed to defeat by operating only within its confines.

Plus, it is usually focused on 'conserving' whatever weak basis society is currently based on, rather than actually restoring a strong (i.e. pre-French Revolutionary) base for moving forward, regardless of Liberalism (and/or its offspring) continually changing and degrading society.
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#10
(09-11-2019, 08:21 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: I've been an integralist for over 30 years and I've called myself that for that long, but then my politics was formed by integralists (or integristes) like de Maistre, Bonald, Donoso Cortes, and other European Catholic thinkers. I've never been much tempted by American 'conservatism', which is just the liberal wolf in sheep's clothing.

De Maistre and Bonald are always worthy of being recommended, but somehow haven't encountered Donoso Cortes over the years, so I'll definitely rectify that.

As much as those and other Catholic thinkers in the Modern Age have to offer in terms of wisdom, I have to admit that the Middle Ages has for so long exerted an even more powerful influence on my mind and imagination.
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