Schism and End Times Scenario
#91
(09-29-2019, 10:11 AM)josh987654321 Wrote: How can one follow what Francis says and does, believe he is the Pope (Highest authority on Earth) and have any peace of soul? If I believed he was legitimately elected I would have no peace of soul, I would be saying the gates of hell have prevailed and why hast thou forsaken me.

Francis hasn't bound the Church to anything. A Pope can say all sorts of wrong stuff without it meaning he isn't the Pope. The gates of hell prevailing doesn't mean having a bad Pope, or even a heretic as Pope.
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#92
(09-29-2019, 07:51 PM)Paul Wrote:
(09-29-2019, 10:11 AM)josh987654321 Wrote: How can one follow what Francis says and does, believe he is the Pope (Highest authority on Earth) and have any peace of soul? If I believed he was legitimately elected I would have no peace of soul, I would be saying the gates of hell have prevailed and why hast thou forsaken me.

Francis hasn't bound the Church to anything. A Pope can say all sorts of wrong stuff without it meaning he isn't the Pope. The gates of hell prevailing doesn't mean having a bad Pope, or even a heretic as Pope.

For the vast majority of the history of Christianity (like 1900 years of it), no one cared too much what what a man half-way around the world was doing. They prayed for him, and followed the Catholic Faith. Only when he, using the power entrusted to his office, communicated some answer that needed to be accepted by Faith did people care.

That history shows men preaching heresy, committing fornication and sacrilege, ordering murders, etc.

About John XII it was written :
  • "What improvement could be looked for if one who was leading an immoral life, who was bellicose and perjured, and who was devoted to hunting, hawking, gaming, and wine, were to be elected to the Apostolic See?"
  • "John's princely instincts were stronger than his taste for spiritual duties, and the two natures—that of Octavian and that of John the Twelfth—stood in unequal conflict. Called as he was in the immaturity of youth to a position which gave him claims on the reverence of the world, his judgment deserted him, and he plunged into the most unbridled sensuality. The Lateran palace was turned into an abode of riot and debauchery. The gilded youths of the city were his daily companions ... The son of the glorious Alberic thus fell a sacrifice to his own unbridled passion, and to the anomalous position which he held as Prince and Pope at the same time. His youth, the greatness of his father, the tragic discords of his position, claim for him a lenient judgment"
  • "There cannot be a doubt that John XII was anything but what a Pope, the chief pastor of Christendom, should have been."
Your average Catholic in the mid-10th century did not care. He lived his life, kept his Faith, prayed for the Pope, and worried about what he could do. I think we could take a lesson from them.

I have enough to worry about here and now, than to worry about the latest craziness from the Pope. I'm not in a position to do anything except pray and do penance. One of the greatest dangers to peace of soul is think I can do more than what my place is to do.

Another danger, here, is I fear this thread is again turning into a second one on a topic that is restricted to one.
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#93
(09-29-2019, 08:58 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: Another danger, here, is I fear this thread is again turning into a second one on a topic that is restricted to one.

Josh has a problem with that. :)
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#94
(09-29-2019, 08:58 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: For the vast majority of the history of Christianity (like 1900 years of it), no one cared too much what what a man half-way around the world was doing. They prayed for him, and followed the Catholic Faith. Only when he, using the power entrusted to his office, communicated some answer that needed to be accepted by Faith did people care.

I suppose I could throw my hands up in the air with the whole situation and just ignore it, but when an article comes out of Francis stabbing us in the back, when an encyclical is published stabbing us in the back and when Priests quote from him, have pictures of him and point all the faithful in his direction, they are all leading others toward their destruction and our persecution by following Francis' heresies.

One can't remain silent in the face of this, so at first it's 'bad' Pope and to pray for him, but then of course, we have other encyclicals throughout history, what right do I have to uphold an encyclical toward Nazi Germany 'Mit Brennender Sorge' for example and then in the same breath resist and fight against other encyclicals such as the one all about so called man made climate change 'Laudato Si'?

If we were living in 1938 we would be telling our German Catholic brothers not to listen to the Third Reich and to listen instead to the Pope and the Encyclical Mit Brennender Sorge, but today in 2019 we are telling them not to listen to the 'Pope' or his Encyclicals.

(09-29-2019, 08:58 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: I have enough to worry about here and now, than to worry about the latest craziness from the Pope. I'm not in a position to do anything except pray and do penance. One of the greatest dangers to peace of soul is think I can do more than what my place is to do.

Yes and No IMO, one doesn't know what one can or can't do, we can only try and then let God take care of the rest, and it's important to remain informed to a certain degree IMO.

(09-29-2019, 08:58 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: Another danger, here, is I fear this thread is again turning into a second one on a topic that is restricted to one.

However it wasn't off topic, I believe this fits on topic with the OP's original thread.

(09-29-2019, 09:04 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: Josh has a problem with that. :)

:)

I read your blog about it - https://musingsofanoldcurmudgeon.blogspo...-pope.html

I will just say I could never become a Sedevacantist, so when Pope Benedict XVI dies and if there is no successor, then I will have to reconsider my position, and if there is a successor from Francis, then again I'll have to reconsider my position at that time. The problem with the Sedevacantists IMO is that we have had several valid Popes after Pope Pius XII including St Pope John Paul II.

God Bless You Both.
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#95
(09-30-2019, 10:12 AM)josh987654321 Wrote: I suppose I could throw my hands up in the air with the whole situation and just ignore it, but when an article comes out of Francis stabbing us in the back, when an encyclical is published stabbing us in the back and when Priests quote from him, have pictures of him and point all the faithful in his direction, they are all leading others toward their destruction and our persecution by following Francis' heresies.

One can't remain silent in the face of this, so at first it's 'bad' Pope and to pray for him, but then of course, we have other encyclicals throughout history, what right do I have to uphold an encyclical toward Nazi Germany 'Mit Brennender Sorge' for example and then in the same breath resist and fight against other encyclicals such as the one all about so called man made climate change 'Laudato Si'?

If we were living in 1938 we would be telling our German Catholic brothers not to listen to the Third Reich and to listen instead to the Pope and the Encyclical Mit Brennender Sorge, but today in 2019 we are telling them not to listen to the 'Pope' or his Encyclicals.

I'm not sure if anyone is saying to ignore all that is happening.  But I think it is essential to try and view these things with some perspective that isn't rooted solely in the present and how we can resist the errors of Pope Francis or whatnot.  We should avoid ultramontanism that goes beyond recognizing the legitimate power and authority of the pope and instead morphs into a cult of the pope, where we hang onto his every word and action.  I know it can seem like Francis has made things more difficult for faithful Catholics, but besides being more open with his errors, I can't say that he has done anything concrete.  When Paul VI promulgated the new order of the Mass, he made no provision for the continuation of the TLM.  Sure, he didn't officially suppress it, but we went from worshipping as Catholics had done for many hundreds of years to a watered-down Protestant-friendly ecumenical new Mass nearly overnight.  The years of John Paul II were hardly any better, though you might be able to find a diocese where a bishop allowed a priest to offer the TLM.  Pope Benedict XVI made it a little easier, but some bishops still made it a point to try and prevent the TLM.  I've heard of cases where the diocese attempted to charge a TLM community a ridiculous leasing fee, or something, to have the TLM said in a diocesan parish.

The persecution of traditional Catholics didn't start with Pope Francis and, except his tendency to be more open with his errors, I can't say he's done anything concrete to make things that much worse when it comes to practicing our Faith.  We have no control over Pope Francis, the bishops, our priests, or anyone but ourselves.  So, yes, I think we should focus far less on Francis and the latest wackiness from him and others.  We know that the Roman Catholic Church is the one that was founded by Jesus Christ.  We don't need to understand how someone like Pope Francis can take the helm of Christ's True Church.  It has happened.  Future theologians will be the ones to figure this out after all the dust has settled and the crisis is long past.  We need only to believe the traditional Catholic faith and teach it others, as best we can.  Most will reject it.  The path to Heaven is a straight and narrow road that few will find.  We might need to admit that we don't know how Pope Francis (really, all the VII popes) fit into the Church's indefectibility or the pope's infallibility, even though both are dogmas and therefore are true.
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
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#96
(09-30-2019, 10:12 AM)josh987654321 Wrote: One can't remain silent in the face of this, so at first it's 'bad' Pope and to pray for him, but then of course, we have other encyclicals throughout history, what right do I have to uphold an encyclical toward Nazi Germany 'Mit Brennender Sorge' for example and then in the same breath resist and fight against other encyclicals such as the one all about so called man made climate change 'Laudato Si'?

If we were living in 1938 we would be telling our German Catholic brothers not to listen to the Third Reich and to listen instead to the Pope and the Encyclical Mit Brennender Sorge, but today in 2019 we are telling them not to listen to the 'Pope' or his Encyclicals.

Catholics living in 1938 and well-formed did not need Mit Brennender Sorge. It was a help because it agreed with the basic principles they ought to have learned as Catholics, but it was just that, a help.

The "right" you have is not to promote or reject encyclicals, but to practice the Catholic Faith whole and entire as it has always been handed down to us. It is not to listen to this Pope or that Pope, but to listen to the Church and Popes, which if you look at the 2000 year history of the Church is a consistent message in the essentials. You have the "right" and duty to ignore what does not help you to do that.

Catholics don't need Mit Brennender Sorge, Pascendi or Laudato Si to be Catholic. They need the Faith. That is learned not by some encyclical or listening to pressers by the Pope, or worrying about this Synod or that one, but by the same Catechisis and Worship that has made Saints for centuries.

When there is confusion, I'll let the people who have the smarts and office stand up and make the corrections to help me focus on what I need to do and learn and not worry about what I cannot change, at least here and now. I think if that were the attitude of the traditional Catholic faithful in general, we'd all be much better able to change the world and restore the Church. It is when we get distracted from our daily duty that we start losing out on the grace of the present moment, needing to solve the world's problems, etc.

I'm not a syncophant of Jordan Peterson, and his Jüngian side is downright wrong, but he's right in one of those 12 rules : Make your bed before you set out to change the world. I think we could apply that to ourselves in our Catholic life very well : Get our own daily duties in order before we worry about the political and satanic machinations of the hierarchy.

God's in charge. We're just a little cog in the machine. It's a great act of humility and thus a wonderfully freeing thing, and full of a massive amount of grace and spiritual growth to just be that cog and not pine after being the crankshaft or engineer.
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