Schism and End Times Scenario
#11
(09-12-2019, 02:52 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: I don't think it'll be Pope Francis; instead, I see it being a successor. I believe that Pope Francis will likely continue to push the envelope, going as far as one can without falling into some certain heresy.  His successors might continue in that vein until the people are so anesthetized to erroneous teachings that a future successor of Francis might cross the line into outright heresy.  At this point, I am kind of vague about how things might proceed, but the faithful remnant will refuse peaceful and universal acceptance of said papal claimant, and a new pope will be elected to lead the remnant of the Church.  I am not saying this scenario will happen, but I think it could be a possibility, as I consider how things have progressed so far and where they might eventually lead.

Maybe, it could even be similar to the USA 2016 elections, when despite all odds Trump was elected and you had riots and not my president etc, in a similar way, God may choose a Holy man to restore His Church, which will be restored, and as such, due to the state of the Church and the schism it's already quietly in, will result in a counterfeit Church being set up along side it following after Francis and his errors.

Personally I don't believe there will be a successor worse then Francis. Firstly because I don't believe Francis is a valid successor, either because Pope Benedict invalidly resigned or because even if he did I believe that election was rigged. In any case, we will find out in my lifetime anyway. If I'm wrong about Francis, when the Church is restored I will confess it, but I don't believe I'm wrong about Francis not being validly elected.

"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."

God Bless
Reply
#12
(09-12-2019, 02:34 PM)1Faith Wrote: Right now the Church and the Anti-Church are uncomfortably coexisting within the same institutional space. I think a real schism is in fact inevitable. Prophecy seems to point in that direction. Church and Anti-Church will soon formally separate, Anti-Church will be seen by the vast majority as the Catholic Church, and the majority of prelates will hold fast to Anti-Church, and thereby separate themselves from the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church will continue to exist only as a small and heavily persecuted remnant.

So right off the bat we're playing fast and loose with terms. This is dangerous, and could lead to all kinds of errors, if we're not careful.

There is one Church. It is the Church established with Jesus Christ. It has certain qualities, but is essentially a society, which means it is visible and can be detected. One of the major error Luther (and then other Protestants after him) made was to identify the Church as an invisible collection of "true believers".

To speak of a Church and Anti-Church as forces within the Church (properly speaking), is fine. There are certainly forces working for the destruction of the Bride of Christ.

To suggest that what appears to be the Catholic Church is not the Church is impossible and contrary to the very constitution of said Church. It is not possible, for instance, that some Pope lead a false Church which appears to be the Catholic Church while the real Church exists only as a loose confederation of "true believers" here or there, unless the "Gates of Hell" have prevailed over the Church.

In short, this would be the destruction of the Church, and thus the end of the world itself.

Now, could a counterfeit "church" be set up? Most assuredly. It has lots of times already.

Could such a "church" pull away and deceive many of the faithful? Again, yes, because it's happened many times.

The problem in such speculation is that whatever scenario one comes up with it still must conform to what the Church teaches about Herself.

(09-12-2019, 02:34 PM)1Faith Wrote: Remember the description of the great harlot in Apocalypse 17 and 18? It certainly seems to be referring to Rome, an apostate Rome, or more precisely a diabolical spiritual power seated in Rome. This could well be this Anti-Church foretold in prophesy. Particular interesting is the urging of God for "his people" to come out of her. Of Course this presupposes that his people, Catholics, are "in" her. This could well refer to the institutional organization taken over by the Anti-Church.

The literal meaning of the Apocalypse is most likely in the past. It is most likely a vision of John which is highly metaphorical and which firstly refers to the trials of the early Church, but also has eschatological meaning as well. It's one of the only books where Scripture scholars suggest that perhaps there are multiple literal senses, where one thing stands for two and not just by metaphor.

As a reference to Rome in the sense you suggest, however, it mostly follows a Protestant notion of the Catholic Church itself as this "Harlot of Babylon".

(09-12-2019, 02:34 PM)1Faith Wrote: So if all of that is in fact the case, then it is in fact the "pope" and the prelates who follow him who will be the schismatics, it is they who will separate themselves definitively from the Catholic Church. It is they who will preside over the counterfeit church of Satan, wherein the Anti-Christ will take his seat.

Yeah, here's wear the first looseness in term goes off the rails. Schism is defined by lack of union with the Pope and the rest of the members of the Catholic Church. A Pope cannot be a schismatic, by definition.

Now, could a Pope lose his office by formal heresy? It seems so at least according to some theologians. If we follow one of those theories and that the Pope's loss of office would be recognized by a very large swath of the bishops or cardinals in imperfect council by recognizing his heresy, then it is perfectly possible that said "Pope" through force retain control over the Vatican itself and to many still appear the Pope and have some bishops supporting him. But there would at least be a clear distinction between the faithful bishops, clergy and faithful and the unfaithful former "Pope" and his followers. People could still identify the Church by her marks, even if there seemed to some to be a counter-"church". That's a possible scenario, but certainly more complex that what is proposed here.

(09-12-2019, 02:34 PM)1Faith Wrote: "...so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God" (2 Thessalonians 2:4)

Most Fathers and theologians who comment on this would have this be a rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem, not the Church. It would be odd for St Paul to speak of a "temple" when Christians did not call their meeting places "temples". The Jewish Christians, because of "The Temple" and the Greeks and Latin because they had pagan temples, and there could be confusion. It is a modern analogy that would have been foreign to the people of the St Paul's time.

(09-12-2019, 02:34 PM)1Faith Wrote: Once this schism comes into full effect, and Anti-Church has the whole institutional apparatus in its grasp, then is likely when the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass will be suppressed, and a new and wholly invalid "liturgy" will takes its place.

"And from the time when the continual sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation shall be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days" (Daniel 12:11)

1, 290 days is 3 and a half years, the reign of Anti-Christ.

Daniel is like St John's Apocalypse. It is firstly about past events and only secondarily about possible future ones.

Seems like it is hard to suggest Pope Francis is this figure, though, if he has already reigned for more than twice this.

(09-12-2019, 02:34 PM)1Faith Wrote: I really do believe we are living in the End times, the time just before the coming of Anti-Christ. Everything is playing out in accord with prophesy, both biblical and as revealed by many Marian apparitions.

We have been since Christ Himself. St Pius X even suggested that perhaps the Anti-Christ might already be in the world in 1903. The Thessalonians thought it was the end long ago. We know neither the day, nor the hour, and speculating does very little good, since no matter what is going on, whether the end is 1,000 years away or 1,000 seconds away, it should not change how we live our Faith one iota. We need to get in and stay in the State of Grace and live a life where Christ is all in all.

(09-12-2019, 02:34 PM)1Faith Wrote: I think we really need to consider this stuff and get a feel for where we may be headed....thoughts?

Why?

How will speculating and worrying about such things help us to be better Catholics and make it easier to save our souls?

If there is some way, then yes, consider said things. If not, then live your Catholic life, stay out of sin, love your Heavenly Mother, pray, sacrifice, and don't worry.
[-] The following 2 users Like MagisterMusicae's post:
  • Fionnchu, Stephanus ignotum
Reply
#13
(09-12-2019, 09:40 PM)1Faith Wrote: .

I would also add St Faustina -
St Faustina Wrote:I bear a special love for Poland, and if she will be obedient to My will, I will exalt her in might and holiness. From her will come forth the spark that will prepare the world for My final coming. (Diary, 1732)

The spark from Poland to prepare the world is believed to be St Pope John Paul II, after St Pope John Paul II we have Pope Benedict who half way through, decides to 'resign' for Francis to be IMO elected through a rigged election.

"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."

God Bless
Reply
#14
(09-12-2019, 08:49 PM)Stephanus ignotum Wrote: 13th June 2029 (100 years since Our Lady requested the Consecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart) + 'Apophis' asteroid in 2029 = Great Chastisement?

Not much of a chastisement in real terms ...

I'd say the Great Chastisement is what we're living through now. The worst chastisement is for God to step back and let us "flamingo" (to quote John Bercow) it up trusting in ourselves. That is a real chastisement.

"Fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Mt 10:28)
[-] The following 1 user Likes MagisterMusicae's post:
  • antiquarian
Reply
#15
(09-12-2019, 09:55 PM)josh987654321 Wrote:
(09-12-2019, 09:40 PM)1Faith Wrote: .

I would also add St Faustina -
St Faustina Wrote:I bear a special love for Poland, and if she will be obedient to My will, I will exalt her in might and holiness. From her will come forth the spark that will prepare the world for My final coming. (Diary, 1732)

The spark from Poland to prepare the world is believed to be St Pope John Paul II, after St Pope John Paul II we have Pope Benedict who half way through, decides to 'resign' for Francis to be IMO elected through a rigged election.

"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."

God Bless

Josh, you know the rules ... one thread.

It was your making every thread into a "Benedict is the real Pope" that got us to have only one thread on it.

Drop it.
Reply
#16
(09-12-2019, 09:15 PM)FultonFan Wrote: This is dangerous territory, folks.

I get it, trying to decipher private revelation like a jigsaw puzzle can become an obsessive and unhealthy practice, nevertheless, it doesn't mean we can't entertain the idea, we are after all to remain vigilant and awake.

I'm fine for us to simply keep in front of us the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the Anti Christ -

Catechism of the Catholic Church Wrote:675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

I keep an eye on what's happening in the Church today with Francis, and this alone is compelling, time will tell so we should focus on prayer and spiritual reading etc, we can mitigate things. Nevertheless, it doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't think about it IMO.

God Bless You
Reply
#17
(09-12-2019, 09:58 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: Josh, you know the rules ... one thread.

It was your making every thread into a "Benedict is the real Pope" that got us to have only one thread on it.

Drop it.

But the OP brought it up, I didn't go out of my way. I'm also not turning every thread into a "Benedict is the real Pope" thread, I have remained silent on this topic for ages and been in countless threads without saying a word about that.

"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."

God Bless
Reply
#18
I would also mention, that Christ tells us it will be like a thief in the night, and nobody would allow a break in if they knew what time the thief was coming, so after all of the cries of wolf through history and in many Christian sects etc, when people hear it could possibly be in their lifetime and dismiss it, that is the best time for a thief to strike.

I would feel much more secure if everyone were speaking about the possibility that it could be in our lifetime (because then it likely will not be, as that would be a terrible time for a thief to strike), then when everyone is dismissing such a notion (which is always the best time for a thief to strike).

God Bless
Reply
#19
Quote:To speak of a Church and Anti-Church as forces within the Church (properly speaking), is fine.

Really that's exactly what I'm talking about. The apostate prelates who are adherence of the heresy of modernism constitute the "anti-church". Obviously these prelates are within the institutional apparatus.

Quote:made was to identify the Church as an invisible collection of "true believers".
I'm not claiming that the Church is, can, or ever will be this. It comes down to the issue of the two popes. If I'm wrong and Francis is definitely the legitimate pope, and Benedict is not, then the whole thing falls apart. However, if Benedict is still actually the Pope, and Francis is an anti-pope, then one can forsee a scenario where there is a schism between the two and those who follow Francis are considered the Catholic Church and are in fact NOT, and the small remnant who follow Benedict are. So the Church would not end up being "an invisible collection of true believers" but rather a visible society under the Roman Pontiff, as it has always been, though very small and persecuted.

Quote:As a reference to Rome in the sense you suggest, however, it mostly follows a Protestant notion of the Catholic Church itself as this "Harlot of Babylon".
Obviously they err in equating the Harlot with the Catholic Church. However a counterfeit Church centered in Rome under the leadership of an anti-pope that spreads heresy and apostasy and leads souls to Hell, while persecuting the (still visible) remnant Church, does match up quite well with the description of the Harlot.

Quote:Schism is defined by lack of union with the Pope and the rest of the members of the Catholic Church. A Pope cannot be a schismatic, by definition.
Absolutely correct. However an anti-pope claiming to be Pope, and the majority of Catholic bishops siding with him against the true Pope and the true church, would constitute a definite schism.

Quote:It would be odd for St Paul to speak of a "temple" when Christians did not call their meeting places "temples"
St. Paul doesn't speak of a temple of God but THE temple of God. Elsewhere he refers to the Church as the "Israel of God". I do not believe for a second Paul had in mind a reconstituted Solomon's temple in Jerusalem. I believe he here refers to the Church, or at rather the physical structure thereof, in Rome. St. Peters Basilica for example.

Quote:Seems like it is hard to suggest Pope Francis is this figure
Pope Francis is 100% NOT the anti-christ. The anti-christ will likely be a globalist Messiah figure.

Quote:it should not change how we live our Faith one iota. We need to get in and stay in the State of Grace and live a life where Christ is all in all.
I agree completely. But there's nothing wrong with trying to understand what's going on in light of prophesy and our Lady's apparitions. But if it detracts from one's spiritual life than by all means stay away from all of this.

Quote:How will speculating and worrying about such things help us to be better Catholics and make it easier to save our souls?
Understanding the diabolical forces unfolding in this world is definitely helpful. Know your enemy.
[-] The following 1 user Likes 1Faith's post:
  • josh987654321
Reply
#20
(09-12-2019, 10:14 PM)1Faith Wrote: Pope Francis is 100% NOT the anti-christ. The anti-christ will likely be a globalist Messiah figure.

Only thing I disagree with, how as the Catechism says, the faith of many believers be shaken if not from within the Church? My faith is not shaken from events outside of the Church, but from within, the Church that Christ promised the gates of Hell would never prevail? now that would shake peoples faith.

"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."

God Bless
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)