Schism and End Times Scenario
#61
(09-14-2019, 09:49 AM)josh987654321 Wrote:
(09-14-2019, 09:38 AM)FultonFan Wrote: The gates of Hell will not prevail, we all seem to agree that this refers to the visible, Roman Catholic Church.

Yup.

(09-14-2019, 09:38 AM)FultonFan Wrote: The evidence is of this prophecy is right before us. When the Holy Father seems to suggest something false, the other faithful members of the Church Militant rise up and seek to correct the error. 

Like the Dubia? Gone unanswered for how long now? Are things getting better? Vigano is still in hiding and we have the Amazon Synod yet which does not look good at all.

(09-14-2019, 09:38 AM)FultonFan Wrote: The Head of the Church is Christ, not the Pope. 

Yes but the Pope is the highest authority on Earth, and if we can say "Don't listen to this Pope because he is in error" then what of all of the other Popes and future Popes? We are then just picking and choosing IMO. You might be at the stage where you think there may be a turn around, but I am at the point where there is only 1 alternative (Because I know the gates of hell can never prevail), which is that Francis was invalidly elected and Pope Benedict XVI is still Pope and or when recognized that Francis' election was rigged a new election needs to take place.

(09-14-2019, 09:38 AM)FultonFan Wrote: In the meantime: prayer, prayer prayer. Penance, penance, penance. Charity, charity charity.

x2

God Bless You

The unanswered Dubia, while disappointing, doesn’t prove anything.
If there were something stated that we were bound to obey — and was clearly sinful — of course there’d be seriously grave concern. But that’s entirely a hypothetical, nothing more.

Here’s something else I’d like to say: the Holy Father says some things that are really quite good. Pope Francis clearly has a great love for the poor. I think he also has a genuine sense of sorrow for those that are suffering, whether it be poverty, mental afflictions, or otherwise.
The problem, of course, is that the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony — and some other things — are not being defended as they should. 
But we should be praying for the Holy Father, not constantly attacking him.
The sense of piety has been lost amongst many of us traditionalists.
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#62
(09-14-2019, 10:06 AM)FultonFan Wrote: The unanswered Dubia, while disappointing, doesn’t prove anything.

On it's own, yea, but accumulative (this is just 1 of many, many things), it proves a whole lot IMO.

(09-14-2019, 10:06 AM)FultonFan Wrote: Here’s something else I’d like to say: the Holy Father says some things that are really quite good. Pope Francis clearly has a great love for the poor.

Your a Fulton J Sheen fan, so I'll go right to Fulton J Sheen himself.

Fulton J Sheen Wrote:Nowhere in Sacred Scripture do we find warrant for the popular myth of the Devil as a buffoon who is dressed like the first “red.” Rather is he described as an angel fallen from heaven, as “the Prince of this world,” whose business it is to tell us that there is no other world. His logic is simple: if there is no heaven there is no hell; if there is no hell, then there is no sin; if there is no sin, then there is no judge, and if there is no judgment then evil is good and good is evil. But above all these descriptions, Our Lord tells us that he will be so much like Himself that he would deceive even the elect — and certainly no devil ever seen in picture books could deceive even the elect. How will he come in this new age to win followers to his religion?

The pre-Communist Russian belief is that he will come disguised as the Great Humanitarian; he will talk peace, prosperity and plenty not as means to lead us to God, but as ends in themselves. . . .

. . . The third temptation in which Satan asked Christ to adore him and all the kingdoms of the world would be His, will become the temptation to have a new religion without a Cross, a liturgy without a world to come, a religion to destroy a religion, or a politics which is a religion — one that renders unto Caesar even the things that are God’s.

In the midst of all his seeming love for humanity and his glib talk of freedom and equality, he will have one great secret which he will tell to no one: he will not believe in God. Because his religion will be brotherhood without the fatherhood of God, he will deceive even the elect. He will set up a counterchurch which will be the ape of the Church, because he, the Devil, is the ape of God. It will have all the notes and characteristics of the Church, but in reverse and emptied of its divine content. It will be a mystical body of the Antichrist that will in all externals resemble the mystical body of Christ.

Francis has two primary focuses above all else, so called man made climate change (this Earth) and ecumenism (Martin Luther's 500th anniversary etc).

"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."

God Bless
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#63
We also have St Francis of Assisi himself -

Works of the Seraphic Father St. Francis Of Assisi London: R. Washbourne, 1882, pp. 248-250 Wrote:Act bravely, my Brethren; take courage, and trust in the Lord. The time is fast approaching in which there will be great trials and afflictions; perplexities and dissensions, both spiritual and temporal, will abound; the charity of many will grow cold, and the malice of the wicked will increase.

The devils will have unusual power, the immaculate purity of our Order, and of others, will be so much obscured that there will be very few Christians who will obey the true Sovereign Pontiff and the Roman Church with loyal hearts and perfect charity. At the time of this tribulation a man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavour to draw many into error and death.

Then scandals will be multiplied, our Order will be divided, and many others will be entirely destroyed, because they will consent to error instead of opposing it.

There will be such diversity of opinions and schisms among the people, the religious and the clergy, that, except those days were shortened, according to the words of the Gospel, even the elect would be led into error, were they not specially guided, amid such great confusion, by the immense mercy of God.

Then our Rule and manner of life will be violently opposed by some, and terrible trials will come upon us. Those who are found faithful will receive the crown of life; but woe to those who, trusting solely in their Order, shall fall into tepidity, for they will not be able to support the temptations permitted for the proving of the elect.

Those who preserve their fervour and adhere to virtue with love and zeal for the truth, will suffer injuries and, persecutions as rebels and schismatics; for their persecutors, urged on by the evil spirits, will say they are rendering a great service to God by destroying such pestilent men from the face of the earth. But the Lord will be the refuge of the afflicted, and will save all who trust in Him. And in order to be like their Head [Jesus Christ], these, the elect, will act with confidence, and by their death will purchase for themselves eternal life; choosing to obey God rather than man, they will fear nothing, and they will prefer to perish [physically] rather than consent to falsehood and perfidy.

Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it under foot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor, but a destroyer.

"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."

God Bless You
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#64
(09-13-2019, 10:25 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(09-13-2019, 08:31 PM)Stephanus ignotum Wrote:
Quote:The true Mass. As long as we have the true Mass, in its proper form (the consecration is key), then we still have the Church. If, for whatever reason, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass were to suddenly cease then the world would come to an end.

"It would be easier for the world to survive without the sun than to do without Holy Mass." ~ St. Pio of Pietrelcina

That's a good way of putting it, since I've long imagined the possibility that the Church could eventually be reduced to literally only a handful of people worldwide, one of whom would have to be a priest to administer the Sacraments and you rightly more specifically reference the Mass especially/exclusively.

I think of the references so often made to the Deluge. Noah and his family were all that survived the Flood out of the entire population of the earth. And since the Church is seen as the ark herself, it would not be a stretch by any means to believe that the most likely scenario is that a tiny group survives the coming chastisement and preserves Holy Mass, especially given Our Lady's warnings that the next spanking from God the Father will be far worse than the Deluge.

Wow, I'd only ever thought like that in a vague sense and never considered it in comparison to Noah and his family/the Church as ark, all of which together is coherent and makes sense.
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#65
(09-13-2019, 10:47 PM)josh987654321 Wrote:
(09-13-2019, 08:13 PM)Augustinian Wrote: The true Mass. As long as we have the true Mass, in its proper form (the consecration is key), then we still have the Church. If, for whatever reason, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass were to suddenly cease then the world would come to an end.

Don't the Orthodox have a valid Holy Eucharist though? The problem arises that, without a successor to St Peter, without an ultimate authority on Earth, who is to say what the True Mass is or is not? If Francis is legitimate then his teachings are binding, if he is not then his teachings are not binding, if his teachings are binding then the gates of hell have prevailed IMO which I know can never happen.

God Bless You

The gates of Hell will never prevail and Pope Francis is legitimate, but he has not taught (the wrong things he seems to espouse) 'ex cathedra' or dogmatically, which he would never be able to do.
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#66
(09-14-2019, 10:38 AM)Stephanus ignotum Wrote: Wow, I'd only ever thought like that in a vague sense and never considered it in comparison to Noah and his family/the Church as ark, all of which together is coherent and makes sense.

And also quite frightening considering what we are witnessing today IMO.

'Jesus, I Trust In You'

"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."

God Bless You
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#67
(09-13-2019, 10:54 PM)Markie Boy Wrote: Yes - the Orthodox have a totally Apostolic connection and valid Eucharist.  That puts quite a twist on things as far as that goes as a limiting factor.  What about prophecy that Rome would loose the faith (before our eyes now) and become seat of the anti-Christ?  The East is not part of that prophetic meltdown.

I think the East gets far too little respect at times from the West.

No, they're in schism and so you're wrong with all of that.
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#68
(09-14-2019, 10:47 AM)Stephanus ignotum Wrote: The gates of Hell will never prevail


I agree.

(09-14-2019, 10:47 AM)Stephanus ignotum Wrote: and Pope Francis is legitimate,


I disagree, and in time I believe this will become more and more clear.

(09-14-2019, 10:47 AM)Stephanus ignotum Wrote: but he has not taught (the wrong things he seems to espouse) 'ex cathedra' or dogmatically, which he would never be able to do.

If legitimate, he is the highest authority on Earth and if the faithful listened as they are supposed to the Holy Father, the USA would have Clinton as President right now and be being persecuted (all across the west incl UK and Australia).

God Bless You
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#69
(09-14-2019, 10:53 AM)josh987654321 Wrote:
(09-14-2019, 10:47 AM)Stephanus ignotum Wrote: The gates of Hell will never prevail

I agree.

Quote:I disagree, and in time I believe this will become more and more clear.

Despite being a Traditionalist and to the point of sympathising with the S.S.P.X., I am not a sedevacantist and don't find it easy and/or pleasant to say, but he is surely still legitimate.

Maybe you're right and time will tell. Whatever happened to those charges of (potential?) Heresy being brought against him?

Quote:If legitimate, he is the highest authority on Earth and if the faithful listened as they are supposed to the Holy Father, the USA would have Clinton as President right now and be being persecuted (all across the west incl UK and Australia).

Don't make the same mistake as Protestants, conflating impeccability and infallibility.
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#70
(09-14-2019, 10:24 AM)josh987654321 Wrote: We also have St Francis of Assisi himself -

Works of the Seraphic Father St. Francis Of Assisi London: R. Washbourne, 1882, pp. 248-250 Wrote:Act bravely, my Brethren; take courage, and trust in the Lord. The time is fast approaching in which there will be great trials and afflictions; perplexities and dissensions, both spiritual and temporal, will abound; the charity of many will grow cold, and the malice of the wicked will increase.

The devils will have unusual power, the immaculate purity of our Order, and of others, will be so much obscured that there will be very few Christians who will obey the true Sovereign Pontiff and the Roman Church with loyal hearts and perfect charity. At the time of this tribulation a man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavour to draw many into error and death.

Then scandals will be multiplied, our Order will be divided, and many others will be entirely destroyed, because they will consent to error instead of opposing it.

There will be such diversity of opinions and schisms among the people, the religious and the clergy, that, except those days were shortened, according to the words of the Gospel, even the elect would be led into error, were they not specially guided, amid such great confusion, by the immense mercy of God.

Then our Rule and manner of life will be violently opposed by some, and terrible trials will come upon us. Those who are found faithful will receive the crown of life; but woe to those who, trusting solely in their Order, shall fall into tepidity, for they will not be able to support the temptations permitted for the proving of the elect.

Those who preserve their fervour and adhere to virtue with love and zeal for the truth, will suffer injuries and, persecutions as rebels and schismatics; for their persecutors, urged on by the evil spirits, will say they are rendering a great service to God by destroying such pestilent men from the face of the earth. But the Lord will be the refuge of the afflicted, and will save all who trust in Him. And in order to be like their Head [Jesus Christ], these, the elect, will act with confidence, and by their death will purchase for themselves eternal life; choosing to obey God rather than man, they will fear nothing, and they will prefer to perish [physically] rather than consent to falsehood and perfidy.

Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it under foot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor, but a destroyer.

"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."

God Bless You

Debunked as apocryphal many a time.

This is not in any authentic collection of St Francis' works, and is thought to be a late addition by the Fratticelli.
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